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In FAIR’s recently uploaded youtube video, Dan Peterson speaks about Book of Mormon Hebraisms (which he evidently believes supports the volume of scripture’s claim for authenticity), saying, “In the Book of Mormon, Lehi is saying, 'Behold I have dreamed a dream, or in other words I have seen a vision.' The dreamed a dream is a really obvious cognate accusative, the 'seen a vision' is a little less obvious, but I suspect originally it was 'seen a seeing.' 'I have dreamed a dream, I have seen a seeing.'”
http://www.youtube.com/user/fairldsorg# ... GfFTry88JM (remarks can be heard at 44:33)

I am surprised that anyone would find this impressive. I did a very brief google search and gathered the following list (pardon and redundancy):

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The table book: or, Daily recreation and information concerning ... - Page 653
William Hone - 1827 - 870 pages - Free Google eBook - Read
Joe Davis had dreamed a dream; or, as my narrator informed me, had seen a vision. Sitting one evening in his little parlour, with his wife and childien before him, he, on a sudden, leaned back in his chair — his eyes became glazed, ...

The age of reason - Page 50
Thomas Paine - 1818 - Free Google eBook - Read
'They pretend to have dreamed dreams, and seen visions, because it was unsafe for them to speak facts or plain language. We ought, however, to suppose, that the persons to whom they wrote understood what they meant, and that it was not ...

Arcana cœlestia: or Heavenly mysteries contained in the sacred ... - Page 46
Emanuel Swedenborg - 1808 - Free Google eBook - Read
... they who worshipped Baalim and other Gods, also prophesied, saw visions, and dreamed dreams, and likewise that the things which were spoken by them came to pass, whereby many were seduced, concerning whom see Jeremiah, chap. xxiii; ...

The poetical works of Sir Walter Scott, baronet: Volume 2 - Page 59
Sir Walter Scott - 1821 - Free Google eBook - Read
boasted of prophetic powers, and were often warned of the approach of the soldiers by supernatural impulse,* Captain John Creichton, on the other side,dreamed dreams, and saw visions, (chiefly, indeed, after having drunk hard,) in...

Repentance, and other poems - Page 110
Mary Ann Gray - 1829 - Free Google eBook - Read
And I have seen a vision, — And I have dreamed a dream, And sure that hour Elysian Was no deceiving beam ! There stood a spirit there, Before my sleeping sight, And her voice had not a tone of care, And her form was pure and bright ..

Remarks on ecclesiastical history: In two volumes. ... - Page 136
John Jortin - 1767 - Free Google eBook - Read
St. Peter had a vision, St. "John saw vifions, St. Paul had visions and dreams. But Christ neither Jaw vistons, nor dreamed a dream, but had an intimate and immediate communication with the Father, he was in the Father's bosom, and he

The New Testament, arranged in chronological & historical order, ...: Volume 2 - Page 30
George Townsend - 1825 - Free Google eBook - Read
But Christ neither saw visions, nor dreamed a dream, but had an intimate and immediate communication with the Father — he was in the Father's bosom — and he, and no man else, bad seen the Father. Moses and Christ are the only two in all ...

The theological works: containing his porta Mosis and English ...: Volume 1 - Page 305
Edward Pococke, Leonard Twells - 1740 - Free Google eBook - Read
Kimchi seems not to make that diffe- and by visions to young men ? It may cer- rence here betwixt dreams and visions, ... These named we may reckon among old men, yet it is not said that they dreamed dreams, but saw visions.

Lectures on the gospel of St. Matthew; ... - Page 55
Beilby Porteus - 1805 - Free Google eBook - Read
This we must after all be content to dor even if we adopt the idea of vision ; for even that does not remove every difficulty, ... It is this : All the prophets of the Old Testament, except Moses, saw visions, and dreamed dreams, ...

Remarks on ecclesiastical history: In two volumes. ... - Page 136
books.google.comJohn Jortin - 1767 - Free Google eBook - Read
All the prophets of the Old Testament saw visions and dreamed dreams , all the prophets of the Neva were in the fame state. St. Peter had a vision, St. "John saw vifions, St. Paul had visions and dreams. But Christ neither Jaw vistons, ...

Discourses concerning the truth of the Christian religion and ...: Volume 1 - Page 283
books.google.comJohn Jortin - 1805 - Free Google eBook - Read
All the prophets of the Old Testament saw visions and dreamed dreams ; all the prophets of the New were in the same state. St. Peter had a vision, St. John sawvisions, St. Paul had visions and dreams. But Christ neither saw visions, ...

Lectures on the Gospel of st. Matthew - Page 85
Beilby Porteus (bp. of London.) - 1802 - Free Google eBook - Read
St. Peter had a vision, St. John saw visions, St. Paul had visions and dreams ; but Christ himself neither saw visions nor dreamed dreams. He had an' intimate and immediate communication with the Father ; and he, and no one else in his ...

The theological works - Page 50
Thomas Paine - 1827 - Free Google eBook - Read
They pretend to have dreamed dreams, and seen visions, because it was unsafe for them to speak facts or plain language. We ought, however to suppose, that the persons to whom they wrote understood what they meant, and that it was not ...

Discourses preached at the Temple church, and on several ...: Volume 4 - Page 124
Thomas Sherlock - 1812 - Free Google eBook - Read
our blessed Saviour, and not to any otiier prophet, either before or aster him : all the prophets of the Old Testament saw visions, and dreamed dreams ; all the prophets of the New were in the fame state. St. Peter had a vision, ...

Blackwood's Edinburgh magazine: Volume 17 - Page 366
1825 - Free Google eBook - Read
I- should opine your sleep to be haunted by many visions, dismal and delightful. SHEPHERD. ... crunkling on ray knee,— on such a couch, Mr North, hath your Shepherd seen visions and dreamed dreams ; but his een were never sleeked...

The republican: Volume 1, Issues 2-16 - Page 122
W. T. Sherwin, Richard Carlile - 1819 - Free Google eBook - Read
They pretend to have dreamed dreams, and seen visions, because it was unsafe for them to speak facts or plain language* We ought, however, to suppose, that the persons to whom they wrote understood what they meant, and that it was not ...

The Annual register of world events: a review of the year: Volume 5 - Page 245
1787 - Free Google eBook - Read
For, out of the mouths of babes and sucklings, is once again, as of oid, perfected praise; the young men saw "vision i, and the old men dreamed dreams" " All these wonders were not worked for nothing. The Spirit of the Lord was gone out ...
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Annual register: Volume 5 - Page 245
1805 - Free Google eBook - Read
For, out of the mouths of babes and sucklings, is once again, as of old, perfected prake ; the young men saw visions, and the old men dreamed dreams." " All these wonders were not worked for nothing. The Spirit of the Lord was gone out, ...

Dodsley's annual register: Volume 24 - Page 243
Edmund Burke - 1763 - Free Google eBook - Read
For, out of the mouths of babes and sucklings, is once again, as of old, perfected praise; the young mn sans 'visions, and the old men dreamed dreams." " All thefe wonders were not worked for nothing. The Spirit of the Lord was gone out ...

Fifty sermons on several subjects and occasions ... - Page 140
Charles Wheatly - 1746 - Free Google eBook - Read
The Prophets of the Old Testament, we are told, saw Visions and dreamed Dreams : And the Prophets also of the New Testament had the same Privilege vouchsafed to them. For St. Peter had a Vision ; Acts x. Saint John had a Series of them ...

The Annual Register, or a View of the history, politicks and ... - Page 243
Robert Dodsley - 1763 - Free Google eBook - Read
... is once again, ' as of old, perfected praise; the young mtn sawu <visons, and the old men dreamed dreams. ... They cautioned him not to regard 'visions or dreams, or to fancy people had remijjion of fins because of their cries or ...

Literæ sacræ; or, The doctrines of moral philosophy and scriptural ... - Page 220
A. Norman - 1825 - Free Google eBook - Read
Of the former part of the prophecy, each prediction, at the time above named, received its accomplishment. The Spirit was poured out upon all flesh *; Sons and daughters prophesied f ; old men dreamed dreams J ; young men saw visions §...

Essays on the nature, causes and effects of national antipathies, ... - Page 99
Richard Otley - 1828 - Free Google eBook - Read
This was the case with the sects alluded to above ; some of them dreamed dreams, saw visions, and received new revelations. Earth was to become a paradise; the church pure and perfect; and human policy and ...

Annual register: Volume 5 - Page 243
Edmund Burke - 1763 - Free Google eBook - Read
For, out of the mouths of babes and sucklings, is once again, as of old, perfected praise; the young men faiv 'vifions, and the old men dreamed dreams." " All these wonders were not worked for nothing. The Spirit of did inward trials ...

The works of the Rev. Charles Buck, late minister of the Gospel: Volume 3 - Page 169
Charles Buck - 1822 - Free Google eBook - Read
their own account, have dreamed dreams, seen visions, heard voices, and pretend to predict future events, as if inspired of God for that purpose. They have set themselves up as oracles, as the peculiar favorites of heaven; while, ...

A collection of tracts on several subjects connected with the ... - Page 141
John Lingard - 1826 - Free Google eBook - Read
DURING the long lapse of more than fifteen centuries, the visions of the apostle St. John had been enveloped in the thickest ... expositors, and anno- tators, who may truly be said to have seen visions, and to have dreamed dreams : and, ...

The North American review: Volume 22 - Page 99
1826 - Free Google eBook - Read
We are inclined to think, that at the commencement of his career he was a fanatic, who had ' seen visions and dreamed dreams,' and who believed the doctrines he professed and inculcated. This practical conquest of the imagination over ...

Minstrelsy of the Scottish border: consisting of historical and ...: Volume 2 - Page 59
Walter Scott - 1812 - 456 pages - Free Google eBook - Read
boasted of prophetic powers, and were often warned of' the approach of the soldiers, by supernatural impulse, * captain John Creichton, on the other side,dreamed dreams, and saw visions, (chiefly, indeed, after having drunk ha1'd,) in ...

Tait's Edinburgh magazine: Volume 1 - Page 558
William Tait, Christian Isobel Johnstone - 1832 - Free Google eBook - Read
When September sent back the citizens to Cheapside, and brought forward an in. flux of " rank and fashion" in their place, his heart was amid the preserves of the Hall ; he saw visions of percussion guns, and dreamed dreams of his ...

A debate on the Roman Catholic religion: held in the ... - Page 244
Alexander Campbell, John Baptist Purcell - 1837 - 360 pages - Free Google eBook -Read
From the days of Luther to the present, we have possessed a numerous and uninterrupted succession of translators, lecturers, expositors, and annotator3, who may truly be said to have seen visions, and to have dreamed dreams; and, ...

The variations of Popery - Page 60
Samuel Edgar - 1838 - 551 pages - Free Google eBook - Read
Peter was a Franciscan and famed for sanctity, miracles, and celestial visions ; Catharine of Sienna, ... All these, in favour of their several patrons, saw visions, uttered revelations, wrought miracles, and dreamed dreams.1 The evils ...

Essays, moral and humorous: also essays on imagination and taste - Page 9
Joseph Addison - 1839 - 194 pages - Free Google eBook - Read
NEW DISTRIBUTION OF HONOURS: A VISION. I was last week taking a solitary walk in the garden of Lincoln's Inn (a favour that is ... I no sooner fell into them, but 1dreamed a dream, or saw a vision, for I know not which to call it

Journal of the Franklin Institute: Volume 18 - Page 366
Franklin Institute (Philadelphia, Pa.) - 1834 - Free Google eBook - Read
Mr. Edson has not merely conceived the idea in his own mind, but has actually tested its correctness; but, most assuredly, this term has been used prematurely. He may have "seen visions," or "dreamed dreams;" but, like some other dreams...

Mike Reed wrote:I am surprised that anyone would find this impressive.

I doubt whether DCP really thinks that these cognate accusatives really are 'impressive'.

He just thinks it can't do any harm to run this one up the flag-pole and see if anyone salutes it. After all, chiasmus has proved a considerable source of comfort to a number of TBMs. He's just doing his apologist job, along the lines of what I believe is the Japanese saying 'So long as one is a monk, one goes on tolling the bell.'

Chap wrote:

Mike Reed wrote:I am surprised that anyone would find this impressive.

I doubt whether DCP really thinks that these cognate accusatives really are 'impressive'.

He just thinks it can't do any harm to run this one up the flag-pole and see if anyone salutes it. After all, chiasmus has proved a considerable source of comfort to a number of TBMs. He's just doing his apologist job, along the lines of what I believe is the Japanese saying 'So long as one is a monk, one goes on tolling the bell.'

Agreed. I am sure many people have already pointed it out to him in the past, but he knows most members do not have this information and will find it impressive. It's essentially the lying for the Lord doctrine. Many think it's ok to be dishonest if they think it will help members to maintain belief.

Themis wrote:Agreed. I am sure many people have already pointed it out to him in the past, but he knows most members do not have this information and will find it impressive. It's essentially the lying for the Lord doctrine. Many think it's ok to be dishonest if they think it will help members to maintain belief.

A wise position for an apologist if he is aware that being honest will discourage members from maintaining their beliefs.

Quasimodo wrote:

Themis wrote:Agreed. I am sure many people have already pointed it out to him in the past, but he knows most members do not have this information and will find it impressive. It's essentially the lying for the Lord doctrine. Many think it's ok to be dishonest if they think it will help members to maintain belief.

A wise position for an apologist if he is aware that being honest will discourage members from maintaining their beliefs.

Some are better in that they just don't bring it up, while others have no problem saying things they know are not correct.

Mike Reed wrote:In FAIR’s recently uploaded youtube video, Dan Peterson speaks about Book of Mormon Hebraisms (which he evidently believes supports the volume of scripture’s claim for authenticity), saying, “In the Book of Mormon, Lehi is saying, 'Behold I have dreamed a dream, or in other words I have seen a vision.' The dreamed a dream is a really obvious cognate accusative, the 'seen a vision' is a little less obvious, but I suspect originally it was 'seen a seeing.' 'I have dreamed a dream, I have seen a seeing.'”

I wrote a bit about cognate accusatives and other Hebraisms here.
http://scrutablescriptures.wordpress.com/2011/05/01/crawling-over-the-book-of-mormon/.

Mortal Man wrote:

Mike Reed wrote:In FAIR’s recently uploaded youtube video, Dan Peterson speaks about Book of Mormon Hebraisms (which he evidently believes supports the volume of scripture’s claim for authenticity), saying, “In the Book of Mormon, Lehi is saying, 'Behold I have dreamed a dream, or in other words I have seen a vision.' The dreamed a dream is a really obvious cognate accusative, the 'seen a vision' is a little less obvious, but I suspect originally it was 'seen a seeing.' 'I have dreamed a dream, I have seen a seeing.'”

I wrote a bit about cognate accusatives and other Hebraisms here.
http://scrutablescriptures.wordpress.com/2011/05/01/crawling-over-the-book-of-mormon/.

Nice. Thanks for sharing that, MM.

Very nice, Mike. I wonder, will (or has) this been posted at MAD? I'd be interested in Dan's thoughts.

TrashcanMan79 wrote:Very nice, Mike. I wonder, will (or has) this been posted at MAD? I'd be interested in Dan's thoughts.

Yeah. I posted it. Nothing from Dan, but I did get a lot of noise from Wade and Hamblin.

Dan responded a couple hours ago, denying that he ever said the cognate accusative was a "knock-out proof", which is odd, since nobody in the thread claimed Dan said this. But but he did think the "evidence" was significant enough to mention in the recent FAIR youtube video. I then reminded Dan about what he wrote in his Evidences of the Book of Mormon:

I teach Arabic about half-time at Brigham Young University, and one of the linguistic forms in Arabic that's common in other Semitic language as well, is something that's called a "cognate accusative"—where you use a noun that's related to a verb in a sentence. You say, "I hit him a great hitting" or "I have dreamed a dream." And the example that I often use to illustrate this, which is not naturally English, is one right out of 1 Nephi, where Lehi reports to his sons, "Behold I have dreamed a dream, or in other words I have seen a vision." Now this "I have dreamed a dream" is a perfect cognate accusative, and when the students hear about this—the ones who know the Book of Mormon—they say, "Ah, yes. Now we understand," because this is an authentic example of the Arabic or Semitic construction.

Even the second part of the sentence (though we lose something in English) when Lehi says, "Behold I have dreamed a dream; or, in other words, I have seen a vision," (1 Nephi 8:2) demonstrates this. You have to remember that English is based on two different languages. English is a hybrid of a sort of Latin or French with a Germanic language—the Anglo-Saxons and then the Norman Conquest, of course. So you have two different words for many things, a sort of low Germanic word and a high Latin-style word. For example, a handbook: we also have the Latin word manual coming from the word Manis for "hand." They mean the same thing. Likewise, with the words "I have seen a vision,"—what he's really saying is "I have seen a seeing." The Latin word seeing was related to the word for vision, and you have a related German word, sehen, or "I have seen a vision," using the Latin word. But in the original it was probably something like this: "Behold I have dreamed a dream; or in other words, I have seen a seeing." So I use this verse in the Book of Mormon in my Arabic grammar class, just to make a point to the students. Now, I ask you how a nineteenth-century farm boy could have come up with something like that, which is a perfect illustration of an Arabic grammatical point. Probably he did a lot of his work in the graduate school there at Palmyra University—well, of course there wasn't such a place. And there was no such Joseph Smith. This came to him via another route, not through academic study.

Oops.