Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...

[_madeleine]

Have you really explored the Nag Hammadi library? http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html It gets as far out as the King Follett Discourse. That is not Christian. Just because others believe that soemthing is scripture and we do not, does not mean that we should be forced to call it Scripture. Neither does it give us license to call it garbage. Others' sacred writings are worthy of reading and study. If we did not read them and study them, we would not have any way of judging their value, other than a fundamentalist rejection of things unexamined.

Well said. :)

[_ludwigm]

I remind You ALL of the topic.

[-quote of the OP]

John the Baptist was on the Mount of Transfiguration. (compare Mark 9:4)
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses or in other words, John the Baptist and Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

What does this verse mean?
[-end quote of the OP]

Apocryphas and Nag Hammadi may be as interesting as dozens of eliases, but - at this time - I don't care them.
You may open as many thread as You want about other scriptures than JST - this is a free forum...

[_Corpsegrinder]

I think you are picking an argument just for the sake of arguing.

Certainly not. I’m here to examine ideas--the best way to examine an idea is to observe what happens when it collides with an opposing idea.

I believe that Scripture and Catholic Tradition are sacred. I do not force others to adhere to my definitions and capitalization practices. I use them to express my beliefs.

MCB, I respect and appreciate the fact that you have no desire to force your religious beliefs on me or anyone else. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the religious organization to which you belong.

Hmmm, I don't think I know you, how is it you think you know me, and know me well enough to give an insult? Childish lashing out?

In what way do you construe this to be an insult? Catholicism’s long and violent history of spiritual intolerance is common knowledge. I come from a Mormon background, but I wouldn't find it insulting if you were to bring up the subject of the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

If you are asking what I believe, it is this…

Thank you for sharing your beliefs with me.

[_ludwigm]

They used to talk vainly with those who talk in vain.

This gate of Hell...

OP

[_gdemetz]

I will make this even more simple for you Ludwigm. Whom do you claim Joseph Smith thought was Elias?!

[_ludwigm]

I will make this even more simple for you Ludwigm. Whom do you claim Joseph Smith thought was Elias?!

Thank You. You are really far-flung, as preparing my way...

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I don't know what did think Joseph Smith. You may wonder, I don't care.
Nobody knows.
I don't claim anything, I claim nothing - as a non-english-speaker even I don't know which expression to use.

************************************************
All we know what did he say/write.

- According to D&C 110:12-13, he didn't think Elias and Elijah are the same, so he can make a hoax - concorded with Oliver Cowdery - that this two different person have appeared them after each other.

12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

- According to his so called translation, he did think Elias is the same person as John the Baptist.

John the Baptist was on the Mount of Transfiguration. (compare Mark 9:4)
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses or in other words, John the Baptist and Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

- According to D&C 27:7, he did think Gabriel, - that stand in the presence of God (Luke 1:11-19) - is Elias:

And also John the son of Zacharias, which Zacharias he (Elias) visited and gave promise that he should have a son, and his name should be bJohn, and he should be filled with the spirit of Elias;

11. And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
12. And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
18. And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
19. And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

- According to his so called translation, he did think Elias and Esaias are the same (do the names sound similar?)

As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

But I say unto you, Who is Elias? Behold, this is Elias, whom I send to prepare the way before me.

And again I say unto you that Elias has come already, concerning whom it is written, Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and they knew him not, and have done unto him, whatsoever they listed.

Is this enough?
Joseph Smith has said a lot enough to show that he doesn't know who is Elias.
What did he know? What did he think?

Please ask the Holy Ghost...

For me, see the paraphrase of my signature:
Whenever Joseph Smith spouts gibberish, the apologists spends centuries deciphering the message.

[_ludwigm]

Apparently, You did forget to answer me:

I only speak English, and a little Cebuano.

Fine.
...
See 6th comment above, viewtopic.php?p=582961#p582961 (Some quote from the Cebuano Bible, and from Doktrina ug Mga Pakigsaad 110)

Please translate us, miserable non-cebuano-speakers, who Elijah is for the Cebuano speakers?

So, who is Elijah in Cebuano?

Or is to answer too uncomfortable?

***************************************************
by the way

"How about that old woman you kiked of your premisers which was beging."
POL PRY.

"There is things which you have done which is unbeknowens to anybody but me. You better trot out a few dols. to yours truly or you'll hear thro' the papers from"
HANDY ANDY.

PERJURY. -- Perhaps, now that Mr. G. Demetz is before the people as a candidate for Leading Mopologist, he will condescend to explain how he came to be convicted of perjury by thirty-four witnesses, in Wakawak, Cochin China, in 1863, the intent of which perjury was to rob a poor native widow and her helpless family of a meagre plantain patch, their only stay and support in their bereavement and their desolation. Mr. G. Demetz owes it to himself, as well as to the great people whose suffrages he asks, to clear this matter up. Will he do it?

BY MARK TWAIN. RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR...

[_gdemetz]

Ludwigm, I glad that you admitted that Joseph Smith called different people Elias! Thank you for that! Here is another JST translation:

" Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist, AND ALSO OF ANOTHER WHO SHOULD COME AND RESTORE ALL THINGS." JST Matthew 17:14

Perhaps this is the Elias mentioned in D&C 110. In any case, it is obvious that Joseph Smith applied this name title to many persons, as I previously stated. It is also obvious from the previous verse that Elias was used there as a name/title ONCE which applied to two different people in the same sentence. My point all along was that Joseph Smith understood this and wasn't confused at all as his critics claim.

[_ludwigm]

Ludwigm, I glad that you admitted that Joseph Smith called different people Elias! Thank you for that!

You should learn Your own language better.
I didn't admit that, I stated that. Affirmed, argued, asseverated, avowed, claimed, contended, declared.

And I did state that no such man exist. Elias is only an alias to Elijah. In a great part due to the translators of KJV.

FYI alias is not one of the stupid TV series our world is full of.
alias is pseudonym.
A pseudonym is a name that a person or group assumes for a particular purpose, which differs from his or her original or true name (orthonym). Popular pseudonyms include stage names, noms de plume (pen names), aliases, gamer identifications, anagrams, Graecisms, Latinisations, mystifications, nicknames, and assumed names (and orders) of popes and monarchs.
Should I explain You the meaning of mystification?

In any case, it is obvious that Joseph Smith applied this name title to many persons.

GDemetz, I glad that you admitted that Joseph Smith applied this name title to many persons. Thank you for that!

The uncomfortable fact - for You and for them who are belonging to the same communion - is that this name title intrinsically is a translation error, and that many persons behind the name title "Elias" don't exist.


***********************************************************
by the way I don't hasten You - I am alien from it...
but...

Who is Elijah in Cebuano?

[_madeleine]

In what way do you construe this to be an insult? Catholicism’s long and violent history of spiritual intolerance is common knowledge. I come from a Mormon background, but I wouldn't find it insulting if you were to bring up the subject of the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

I thought you were talking to me, not the Catholic Church.

Long and violent history.... a caricature of a whole group of people, and a culture, over hundreds and thousands of years, at best.