Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes

[_Tonto Schwartz]

According to Joseph's story, one of the things that the angel Moroni (or was it Nephi?) told him during his nocturnal visits was that in the last days the lost 10 tribes would return from the north country. This was consistent with later claims by Joseph to his followers that the 10 tribes lived near the North Pole (as Santa's elves?). Joseph might have been able to get away with such a ridiculous story in the 1830s and 40s, but it is beyond silly today to argue that the 10 tribes are at some unknown location in the north country that explorations and satellites, etc. haven't discovered. As I understand it, biblical scholars tell us that the story of the lost 10 tribes is a myth arising out Old Testament the conquest of the Northern Kingdom of Israel by the Assyrians in the 7th century B.C. The 10 tribes occupied the Northern Kingdom at the time. Some were relocated by the conquerers to Assyria and other locations and some went to the Southern Kingdom where the Jews lived and some remained in the Northern Kingdom with the conquerers, but the separate identity of the 10 tribes was eventually lost, giving rise to the myth. How much sense does it make that an angel of God would believe in such a myth? About as much sense as scores of other fantastic yarns that Joseph trumped up to be swallowed hook, line and sinker by the early Mormons.

[_Shulem]

The world has been searched over and there are no Ten Lost Tribes hiding in the ice in the upper regions of the planet. Joseph Smith made it up.

Also, the writing of Facismile No. 3 has been translated by Egyptologists and there is no Egyptian king's name written therein as Joseph Smith claimed. Not even the famous school teacher Daniel C. Peterson can find it. And he doesn't know what to say about that. His lips are sealed and his jaw is dropped.

Shall I say more? Look, Joseph Smith was a liar. He was a pretty good one at that. I think the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 have proven that. There are no LDS apologists wise enough to prove otherwise. Challenging Facsimile No. 3 is like pouring salt over a scabby testimony -- it hurts.

Paul O

[_Tobin]

Actually, let me correct this. Joseph Smith actually indicated the 10 tribes were no longer on the Earth and would return one day from the North countries when they return.

President Young said he heard Joseph Smith say that the Ten Tribes of Israel were on a Portion of Land separated from this Earth.
- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, September 8, 1867, reprinted in Susan Staker, ed., Waiting for World’s End, The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff, 1993, p. 291

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory. Articles of Faith, verse 10.

James E. Talmage; In his book Articles of Faith, page 340, "—it is plain that, while many of those belonging to the ten tribes were diffused among the nations, a sufficient number to justify the retention of the original name were led away as a body, and are now in existence some place where the Lord has hidden them’.

3 Nephi 16:1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.
3 Nephi 16:2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.
3 Nephi 16:3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there shall be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.

This has actually been part of Mormon lore for a very long time. Also, one of the signs that this day is fast approaching was to be the ice caps melting. Hmmmm, I see no signs of that. Do you?

[_Shulem]

Show me the Ten Lost Tribes and tell me the name of the king in Facsimile No. 3 and then I will believe.

Paul O

[_Tobin]

Show me the Ten Lost Tribes and tell me the name of the king in Facsimile No. 3 and then I will believe.

Paul O

I've already answered you. 1) They have yet to return. 2) Joseph Smith couldn't read Egyptian hieroglyphics so any attribution to him regarding that is worthless.

[_subgenius]

According to Joseph's story...

Can you provide a reputable, or verifiable ,source that this was actually "according to Joseph"?...or did you mean to write "according to what Benjamin Johnson said Joseph said".
Citing Benjamin Johnson as claiming that Joseph said it is hardly worthy of any further discussion....unless the discussion is about you actually proving it is "according to Joseph"

[Guest]

Why is it that Mormons only credit what early Mormons and friends of Joseph said if they like the content. Johnson was both. His statement is also consistent with Joseph's story of what Moroni said during his visits. Do you dispute Joseph's claim in that regard? The North Pole story is also consistent with what other early Mormon leaders close to Joseph wrote. For example, W.W. Phelps, wrote a letter to Oliver Cowdery concerning the North Pole location published in the October 1935 Messenger and Advocate 2:194. Orson Pratt also published an article about the 10 tribes in the north country published in the Millenial Star 29:200-4. Joseph was at least the Editor of the Messenger And Advocate when the article was written. Do you have any evidence that Joseph ever corrected or disavowed the article?

With respect to your statement that Joseph said the lost tribes were in a land separated from the earth, but will return in the last days, that is at least as absurd as the North Pole story. To believe either version is utter nonsense. But to believe Joseph was a prophet, you are forced to believe all sorts of crazy things he said,aren't you.

[_Shulem]

Show me the Ten Lost Tribes and tell me the name of the king in Facsimile No. 3 and then I will believe.

Paul O

I've already answered you. 1) They have yet to return. 2) Joseph Smith couldn't read Egyptian hieroglyphics so any attribution to him regarding that is worthless.

You get one point for being half right. You get the other point AFTER the Tribes return, if they ever do.

Have a nice day.

Paul O

[_Tobin]

With respect to your statement that Joseph said the lost tribes were in a land separated from the earth, but will return in the last days, that is at least as absurd as the North Pole story. To believe either version is utter nonsense. But to believe Joseph was a prophet, you are forced to believe all sorts of crazy things he said,aren't you.

Really? You do know that Mormons believe the City of Enoch was also caught up and separated from the Earth and will also return? And I find it odd that you would state it is just "crazy" to believe that God could do stuff like this. But, I suppose you would consider it crazy if God parted the Rea Sea or walked on water too because everyone knows that omnipotence has limits.

[_Tonto Schwartz]

Do you ever justify your beliefs with common sense or reason or do you just try to support one crazy belief with another and it never stops? I suppose God can do anything no matter how crazy and no matter how contrary to the laws of nature, but you have a heavy burden to prove God does so, especially if you are going to start relying on the Old Testament and all the folklore and myths that are scientifically proven not to have occurred. Or do you really believe the story of the Tower of Babel even though there were many languages and people in many regions of the earth hundreds of years before the supposed tower story and the story is nonsensical in so many ways. Of course, the Book of Mormon's story of the Jeredites is dependant on the reality of the Tower of Babel story. So long Book of Mormon. I suppose you also believe that an angel of God with drawn sword threatened to kill Joseph if he didn't have sex with other men's wives and with young teenage girls? The craziness of Mormonism never ends. You can believe anything you want, but don't expect people who have not deluded themselves to pretend your beliefs make any sense or are the result of an intelligent, good faith search for truth.