DiscussMormonism.com

Disclaimer: My comments may or may not be reflective of doctrine specifically taught by the LDS Church.

The current First Presidency, like Joseph Smith, does not believe that the LDS Church has All of the Truth. However, we are the only church body which performs ordinances for both the living and the dead in the Temples which have been dedicated to the Lord. Holding the Keys to the Kingdom of God, we fulfill purposes for the Lord. Through John the Baptist, and through Peter, James and John the Beloved, the Holy Priesthood was given to Joseph Smith.

I believe, that just as in Old Testament and New Testament times, God continues to communicate with His children through prophets all over the earth whose teachings are manifested through many different religions. I also believe the following passage (which, by the way, should put an end to the incorrect interpretation of the Book of Revelation wherein some people believe there will be no further revelation and/or prophecies):

Acts 2:17 (KJV)

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

I believe that these occurrences will take place in all religions. I believe in universal salvation----that even the Sons of Perdition will eventually obtain salvation even if it means their intelligences and spirits will need to be reorganized in order for each spirit entity to achieve salvation. I also believe, in that, God is eternal, and that we are also eternal, that all will continue to progress either in this world, or in another world, until we become exalted beings who are One with God. Eternity has no beginning and no end. Our existence on this earth in our physical body DOES have a beginning and an end; however, inasmuch as we are eternal, our spirit can achieve Exaltation through a progression of entering a new body either here or in another world or worlds until God's desire is realized. His desire is that we ALL return to Him. His “will” will be done all in accordance with our own personal progression and exercise of our own free will, using the pathway which He, in His infinite mercy, has provided.

When Jesus commanded us to be perfect, and wherein we are taught that God will make up the difference, I think man has misinterpreted this to mean that if we have not been completely awakened spiritually (i.e., are born of the Spirit-see John 3:3) so that we can see the Kingdom of God, that He will perfect us with His own Power and Authority. However, I believe He allows for our perfection to take place through the use of our free will. Otherwise, He becomes a puppet master choosing some over others to make perfect, while others flounder and fall. We are taught that only those who are born of the Spirit will be able to see the Kingdom of God. Since I and those who are reading my words are unable to yet see the Kingdom of God (although I believe that those who are spiritually enlightened do get to experience glimpses of His Kingdom—just not all of it, and not for any lengthened period of time), then it is not possible that we HAVE been born of the Spirit; however, it IS apparent to me that some have progressed farther than others. Some see the spiritual much easier than others. They are the ones who have eyes which can see and ears which can hear.

We are all on our own personal journey, and all of us at a different point in that journey to Exaltation. Once we achieve perfection, once our spirit is born of the Spirit, we WILL see the Kingdom of God. In fact, it cannot be hidden from us at that point; and we will see all things clearly, having perfect knowledge, and be totally prepared to be joint-heirs with Christ. There will be no more "mystery" (i.e., the missing of any of the pieces of ALL Truth) of God. As an individual entity, our spirit will progress through the events of the book of Revelation. Likewise, the earth will also physically progress through those events. We are truly sons and daughters of the most High God, quite literally!

When we are taught that only "few there be that find it", I believe Jesus is speaking of our current incarnation; In other words, most of us need to go through more incarnations until we are among the "few there be that find it" within that particular incarnation. It is only those who are completely born of the Spirit who will find it (“it” being Exaltation).

Where we are taught that our sins have been forgiven us; but then are also taught that those who live by the sword will die by the sword, or with what judgment we mete the same is meted unto us, these teachings at first appear to be in conflict. Additionally we are taught that Mercy cannot rob Justice!! Through the process of reincarnation, these words become Truth because if we lived by the sword in one life and did not die by the sword in that same life, our spirit will enter another body in order that Justice will be served; yet, our sins are still forgiven us (Mercy). In fact, our spirit can then experience Justice and learn what it needs to in order to progress spiritually.

Joseph Smith once told some of the Brethren that if they knew everything that he had learned [about the Kingdom of God], they would kill him. What a curious thing to say UNLESS you take into consideration reincarnation. Who was Joseph in other incarnations? Is the way he died indicative of something he did in another life? What about John the Baptist? He said he wasn’t Elijah; Jesus said that John was Elijah. How can this be? I believe both were telling the Truth. Jesus knows All Truth – he IS All Truth. I believe Jesus was teaching a spiritual truth. He would have known that the same spirit that was in Elijah’s body was the same spirit that was now occupying John the Baptist’s body. It was the spirit inside of John’s body that needed to be in a physical body which went through the experience of dying by the sword in order for Justice to be served.

How much of this did John the Baptist understand? As you will see, it does not matter; because either way, John’s answer would have been true from the standpoint that John’s body was NOT the body of Elijah. Therefore, in the physical meaning, John was NOT Elijah. If the veil HAD been removed from John’s mind, he STILL was not Elijah. A spirit is its own entity. As such, our spirit will have its own name; regardless of what physical body it occupies. Perhaps this is why Jesus gives new names to individuals throughout the Bible. I think that some names are representative of “titles”. Perhaps the new name is the name of the spirit which was always known by God by that name. This could explain what Joseph Smith was told by the Lord in D&C 130:11 (which will be discussed shortly).

Some other ancient texts also hint that John the Baptist was Elijah in a previous life. Now, we know that John the Baptist died by having his head cut off. Let’s take into consideration that Jesus also taught that he who lives by the sword will die by the sword; with what judgment we mete, the same will be meted to us; etc. So, look at 1Kings 18:40 where Elijah slew 450 Prophets of Baal. In other words, Elijah lived by the sword, but in that incarnation, he did not die by the sword; in fact, he did not die in that incarnation. He was taken to Heaven in a chariot. I want to continue searching for other possible clues in the Bible which could portray that the same spirit has been in more than one body.

There are other ancient writings that have not been canonized which also contain Truth. Those who are enlightened by the Spirit will be able to find those Truths and be benefitted by them. The following only mentions the Apocrypha; but I believe there are many other ancient writings and oral traditions which also contain Truth identifiable by those who are enlightened by the Spirit who will also be able to filter out what is false.

D&C 91

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, 9 March 1833 (see History of the Church, 1:331–32). The Prophet was at this time engaged in the translation of the Old Testament. Having come to that portion of the ancient writings called the Apocrypha, he inquired of the Lord and received this instruction.

1–3, The Apocrypha is mostly translated correctly but contains many interpolations by the hands of men that are not true; 4–6, It benefits those enlightened by the Spirit.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;
2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.
3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.
4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;
5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;
6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

Some LDS misunderstand the above to be saying that the Apocrypha is false. However, that is NOT what the Lord told Joseph Smith.

Now, there are ancient writings and ancient religions which claim there are seven degrees of Heaven. Some claim other various numbers, and go as high as 365 degrees of Heaven. The standard belief of the LDS Church is that there are three degrees of Heaven. Perhaps that is what God thought that most of the people were ready to understand. However, I just found this, though I had read it many times before. I just did not previously have the eyes to see. It seems to me that ALL scripture contains "hidden" Truth until we are ready to have it revealed to us. Pay special attention to verses 10 and 11 (which I have highlighted):

D&C 130:4-11
4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?
5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it.
6 The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth;
7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.
8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.
9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

In other words, a white stone is given to each of those who come into the Celestial Kingdom. The white stone will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known! In other words, there are more than three levels of Heaven. Also note that in verse 11 there is a “new name” written on the stone. We can also see the new name is the key word. Perhaps, as I have already suggested, this is the name of our spirit. Father would know our spirit by our spirit’s name; not by the various physical bodies it has occupied. Indeed, those bodies have returned to the dust from whence they came.

I think it is possible that verse 5 could be hinting at reincarnation.

Now, we know that Joseph Smith believed in reincarnation, and that some of his wives and close friends say he spoke to them about it. He was also frustrated sometimes with the members of the Church because they weren’t as spiritually aware as he hoped they would be. I think, that just like with Apostles of old, Joseph had been taught things which he did not make doctrine because the people weren’t ready to have it revealed to them. This could even have been for the sake of the safety of the members of the Church seeing as how they were already being persecuted, pursued, and killed because of their beliefs.

*"8 June 1889: During our talks he [Lorenzo Snow] told me that his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he [Lorenzo Snow] saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came to him from the Lord or His oracle." ---Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 8 June 1889 entry, Church Archives

*Heber C. Kimball wrote:

"We have come here to become inured to work - to build temples, and improve upon the elements that God has placed around us, that we may become more skillful tomorrow, through the experience of to-day. What I do not to-day, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. But suppose that I do not improve my time to-day, I wake up to-morrow and find myself in the rear; and then, if I do not improve upon that day, and again lay down to sleep, on awaking, I find myself still in the rear. This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection. They are days labours, and it is for us to be faithful to-day, tomorrow, and every day." Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 4:329

*April 1843 Joseph Smith said the purpose of successive probations or 'worlds' was to permit the gradual accumulation of intelligence and knowledge,”

*Orson Pratt taught that if a soul has not proved itself in this Probation the soul may be cast into another world and live out another probation. (October 6, 1853. Journal of Discourses Vol 1, p. 332

*Heber Kimball: "When an unbaked pot is broken, the potter can use the mud to make a new one, but when a baked one is broken, he cannot do the same any longer. So when a person dies in a state of ignorance, he is born again but when he becomes well baked in the fire of true knowledge and dies a perfect man, he is not born again.”

*James E. Talmage
"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God's plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabling to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God's living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase."

*In a talk from the stand of the tabernacle in the presence of President Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball explained how Joseph Smith taught that we are conducted from one probation to another probation upon this earth - that is from one dispensation to another. Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations.

I have previously posted the following; however, I am repeating these as they support the purpose of this thread. A number of Early Church Fathers believed in and wrote about reincarnation:

*St. Justin Martyr (100–165 A.D.) expressly stated that the soul inhabits more than one human body.

*Origen (185–254 A.D.), who was considered by St. Jerome as “the greatest teacher of the Church after the Apostles,” defended the idea that the soul exists before the body, fundamental to the concept of reincarnation. Origen also wrote: "The soul has neither beginning nor end. [They] come into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of their previous lives"

*Another Church Father, St. Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa (257–332 A.D.), wrote: “It is absolutely necessary that the soul should be healed and purified, and if this does not take place during its life on earth it must be accomplished in future lives. . . . The soul . . . is immaterial and invisible in nature, it at one time puts off one body . . . and exchanges it for a second.” St. Gregory also wrote: “Every soul comes into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of its previous life.”

*St. Augustine (354–430 A.D.), one of the greatest theologians of the Christian church, speculated that philosopher Plotinus was the reincarnation of Plato. St. Augustine wrote: “The message of Plato . . . now shines forth mainly in Plotinus, a Platonist so like his master that one would think . . . that Plato is born again in Plotinus.”

*Other Church Fathers who demonstrated a belief in reincarnation included Synesius (the Bishop of Ptolemais), St. Ambrose, Pope Gregory I, Jerome, St. Athanasius, St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, and Clement of Alexandria.

That’s enough for now.

Blessings,

jo

Do you have a cliff notes version of this? I was meandering through this last night, but every time I was trying to reach a conclusion about something - I'd instead end up with a handful of loose ends or at a diaspora somewhere south of Cleveland I think?!?

I really like some of the ideas. I always feel uncomfortable when I hear the LDS expression, that "mercy cannot rob justice". My own feeling is that saying ignores the true nature of the Atonement and instead gives in to the human desire for retribution. Showing mercy and turning the other cheek, as Jesus taught, certainly seems like a rebuff of the Old Testament practice of requiring an eye for an eye. Not sure how your thoughts of multiple incarnations fit with the concept of universal salvation, at least through the Atonement.

Multiple probations...a popular idea, these days...however, it has no support in the scriptures. I have a cousin (a woman) who is deep into new age stuff, the Book Of Miracles, things like that. She also believes in multiple probations, it doesn't matter to her what the scriptures say....

Hello jo1952,

I don't really have much to add to your comments except I also believe in reincarnation as described in the Edgar Cayce readings.
>>>I want to continue searching for other possible clues in the Bible which could portray that the same spirit has been in more than one body.<<<

I might have some names for you depending on how you feel about Jesus. Do you believe he lived on earth before he became the Christ?

Tobin wrote:Do you have a cliff notes version of this? I was meandering through this last night, but every time I was trying to reach a conclusion about something - I'd instead end up with a handful of loose ends or at a diaspora somewhere south of Cleveland I think?!?

Hello dear Tobin,

I think you may have ended up as far south of Cleveland as Columbus, as I have been to Columbus before.

No, I don't have a cliff notes version of what I have posted. Of course, these are not the sum total of my beliefs, either. However, pick an idea which we can concentrate on so that you can reach a conclusion; and we can go through them all in the same way.

Blessings,

jo

moksha wrote:I really like some of the ideas. I always feel uncomfortable when I hear the LDS expression, that "mercy cannot rob justice". My own feeling is that saying ignores the true nature of the Atonement and instead gives in to the human desire for retribution. Showing mercy and turning the other cheek, as Jesus taught, certainly seems like a rebuff of the Old Testament practice of requiring an eye for an eye. Not sure how your thoughts of multiple incarnations fit with the concept of universal salvation, at least through the Atonement.

Hello Cutie Penguin!

I actually did find a passage in the Old Testament which will, at the very least, show that there is a connection between Mercy and Justice. I will present it in context:

Psalm 89:11-15 (KJV) (emphasis mine)

11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.

13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.

14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.

Then, in the New Testament, there is this passage which, I think, is easier to understand:

James 2:13 (KJV)

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

For more clarification, the Greek definition for the word "judgment" as it is used in the above passage is "justice".

G2920 (judgment)
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

Let me share how I believe this works. There are passages in the New Testament which teach us more than just what I wrote in my OP; i.e., he who lives by the sword shall dies by the sword, with what judgment ye mete, the same shall be meted unto you. There is also the verse from James, above; if we do not show mercy, then God will not show us mercy when He judges us (in order to serve Justice). Also, if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven; etc.

Now, there will be things which we have done to others during our life which we cannot go back and "fix". For instance, if we have been unmerciful to someone, we may not have the opportunity to get back to that person and show them mercy. We may not be able to find them; or perhaps they have already died. So how is Justice served? We can show mercy to others, which indicates to God that we now understand that we should have shown mercy all along. At that point, the mercy that we show others will be cause for us to rejoice, because we will now be judged with mercy. The same can be said of being forgiving to others. If we have not forgiven them, we will not be forgiven either. But if they are no longer around to forgive, then we had better start manifesting forgiveness toward others - otherwise Justice will not be satisfied, and we will be judged without forgiveness.

Let us look at the teaching that those who live by the sword will die by the sword. by the way, we need to keep in mind that we need to make things right while we are in our body of flesh. My thoughts concerning Elijah, wherein he did NOT die by the sword (and he was not at war with the 450 prophets of Baal....the story also does not indicate that those prophets had killed anyone...nor does the story indicate that God told Elijah to kill them), are that Elijah had killed the prophets of his own accord. Justice had not been served while the body of Elijah was available to die by the sword, because he was taken in a chariot to Heaven. However, John the Baptist's body WAS available to die by the sword. Thus Justice was served, which availed the spirit that had occupied those bodies, of Mercy.

Without the Atonement, there would be no Mercy; there would only be Justice. I think that the Old Testament's eye-for-an-eye was a pattern and type of what was to come through Christ. Once Christ came, He didn't want man to take retribution against other men anymore. Christ taught us that vengeance is His; Judgment is His; He paid for those rights through His Atonement and paying the wages of our sins. The manifestation of His Atonement is Mercy. When He teaches that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, or that He will forgive whom He will forgive, etc., it is because He is the one who will know when Justice has been served for each of us; at which time His Mercy allows us to eventually progress to Exaltation. If Justice has not been served while we are in our current body wherein we incurred the need for Justice because of our actions, then Justice will be served in another incarnation. Once Justice has been served, we obtain the Mercy Christ earned through His Atonement even though we have already been forgiven of our sins through the power of the Atonement.

I would like to present an example of how Justice must be served before Mercy can be given. I realize that this is from the Old Testament before Christ came; however, please note that the Prophet Nathan tells David that his sin has been "put away" and that David will not die [spiritually]. However, the life of his innocent son is taken by the Lord; which I believe is where Justice is served for the innocent life which David took. Also, inasmuch as Christ's Atonement had not yet taken place, the taking of David's son satisfied the Law of Moses; i.e., an eye-for-an-eye. Remember that David was responsible for the death by the sword of Uriah (David spilled innocent blood). There is nothing David could have done to make this right David could not bring Uriah back to life. No amount of David's forgiving others, or having mercy on others, etc., could ever bring back the life of an innocent man.

2 Samuel 12:9-14 (KJV)

9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

11 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

Blessings,

jo

Shalom everyone!

Thank you Jo, for presenting some of your beliefs.

In regards to whether or not the scriptures teach reincarnation, there are several verses in the New Testament which reveal that Yeshua (Jesus) and his disciples walked with reincarnation as a standard understanding.

One, which Jo mentioned, is Yeshua saying that John the Baptist was Elijah come again.

Another is in John 9, where his disciples ask, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Of course for the man to have sinned before he was born implies a prior existence for the 'man', during which he could have sinned. Yeshua did not correct then, leading us to believe that it was a valid question.

Another is in Luke 13, where Yeshua says:

There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

The only way for this prophecy to come true is with reincarnation and the carrying of debt or bad karma from one life to another.

A final Biblical offering in support of reincarnation is from Revelation 3: He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. Go out no more can only mean the soul going out away from God and living another life.

And these come from the scriptures that made it into a canon created by men of authority who did not want reincarnation taught! Imagine if people had more than one life to find salvation? That sort of takes away the control of the masses by a religious authority, yes? In many Holy Writings that did not make canon, reincarnation is openly discussed and taught.

Shalom!

Sheryl

Hi Jo, can you give us some examples of the prophecies given by God through His prophets over the last 12 months or so?

sheryl wrote:And these come from the scriptures that made it into a canon created by men of authority who did not want reincarnation taught! Imagine if people had more than one life to find salvation? That sort of takes away the control of the masses by a religious authority, yes? In many Holy Writings that did not make canon, reincarnation is openly discussed and taught.

Buddhism is a religion that teaches reincarnation, and in Buddhism the idea that "we have more than one life to find salvation" is a wrong view, actually it's one of the first things you have to change (the first of the "Four Mind-Changings"). That's because the precious human body is extremely difficult to obtain.

Bottom line, I think you are psychologizing the motivations of the Church Fathers beyond any point where it makes sense. You should be more careful in your approach. Did Origen teach some type of reincarnation? Sure, but a) does that make it Christian b) does that make it true? Also I'd be very curious to hear if you have any sources for early Christian ideas about reincarnation that aren't Origen.