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I am starting some research on the Urim and Thummim and thought I would seek help from the bloggernacle. Any information on the following would be appropriated:

1. Who outside of Joseph Smith ever saw the Urim and Thummim and breast plate?
2. Do we have any accounts of his use of the Urim and Thummim in Book of Mormon translation?

The only source I have is of Lucy (his mother) who felt them while warped in a cloth. I would appreciate your responses input.

Most references to the urimm and thummin refer to the seer stone(s) Joseph possesed previous to receiving the Book of Mormon and not the breastplate wire frame get up as taught in seminary.

Yes, I am aware of the interchangeable use between the "seer Stone" and the Urim and Thummim, however it is my understanding that he used the U&T for the lost 116 pages, then subsequently used the "stone-in-hat" method for the Book of Mormon of today. I am curious to see if we have any references to his specific use of the U&T, after all it was a 2000 year old interment preserved for his day.

If by U&T you are referring to that object he found along with the gold plates in the stone box, it was taken away from him for losing the 116 pages and not returned. I believe references to him using a U&T after that point are talking about his peep/seer stones and his hat.

Fence Sitter wrote:If by U&T you are referring to that object he found along with the gold plates in the stone box, it was taken away from him for losing the 116 pages and not returned. I believe references to him using a U&T after that point are talking about his peep/seer stones and his hat.

Why do people keep saying Joseph Smith didn't get the U&T back after losing the 116 pages?!? In the HC itself, Joseph Smith states it was returned to him.

Lucy (his mother) who felt them while warped in a cloth.

Are you talking about warp and weft, as in terms of weaving? A weaving cannot exist with only the warp threads. It also has to have the weft (horizontal threads). So rolling Lucy up in a warp might enable her to be part of the process of weaving a bizarre tapestry.

Tobin wrote:

Fence Sitter wrote:If by U&T you are referring to that object he found along with the gold plates in the stone box, it was taken away from him for losing the 116 pages and not returned. I believe references to him using a U&T after that point are talking about his peep/seer stones and his hat.

Why do people keep saying Joseph Smith didn't get the U&T back after losing the 116 pages?!? In the HC itself, Joseph Smith states it was returned to him.

I believe all descriptions of translation after the 116 pages were lost show him using the face in the hat method. Can you link or quote the HC statement? (it's not that I don't believe you I just want to read it for myself.)

Thanks

Fence Sitter wrote:I believe all descriptions of translation after the 116 pages were lost show him using the face in the hat method. Can you link or quote the HC statement? (it's not that I don't believe you I just want to read it for myself.)

HC Volume 1 pg 21

In the meantime, while Martin Harris was gone with the writings, I went to visit my father's family at Manchester. I continued there for a short season, and then returned to my place in Pennsylvania. Immediately after my return home, I was walking out a little distance, when, behold, the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again--for it had been taken from me in consequence of my having wearied the Lord in asking for the privilege of letting Martin Harris take the writings, which he lost by transgression--and I inquired of the Lord through it, and obtained the following:

Tobin wrote:HC Volume 1 pg 21

In the meantime, while Martin Harris was gone with the writings, I went to visit my father's family at Manchester. I continued there for a short season, and then returned to my place in Pennsylvania. Immediately after my return home, I was walking out a little distance, when, behold, the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again--for it had been taken from me in consequence of my having wearied the Lord in asking for the privilege of letting Martin Harris take the writings, which he lost by transgression--and I inquired of the Lord through it, and obtained the following:

Thanks.

Do you know of any accounts of him using the Urim & Thummin after that time which make it clear that it is the same item he found in the stone box with the gold plates?

Emma says:

"Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by use of the Urim and Thummin, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he [my husband] used a small stone, not exacty black, but was rather a dark color".

Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 1:532