10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.
11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.
12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;
13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.
If the brass plates were such an integral part of the plan that it justified Laban being murered to prevent a nation dwindling in unbelief - what were they subsequently used for and why didn't they prevent the Nephite nation (who took the plates) dwindling in unbelief?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
I lean toward the theory that one of the ultimate messages of the Book of Mormon is that the slaying of Laban was wrong.
Nephi gets plagued with the knowledge that his descendants will ultimately be destroyed.
And then they are destroyed.
It is the Book of Mormon version of the Kobayashi Maru scenario.
Or perhaps more seriously, a reimagining of the fall of man from paradise, where it appeared there was a free choice but the outcome was predetermined.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
consiglieri wrote:I lean toward the theory that one of the ultimate messages of the Book of Mormon is that the slaying of Laban was wrong.
Nephi gets plagued with the knowledge that his descendants will ultimately be destroyed.
And then they are destroyed.
It is the Book of Mormon version of the Kobayashi Maru scenario.
Or perhaps more seriously, a reimagining of the fall of man from paradise, where it appeared there was a free choice but the outcome was predetermined.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
So where do you see the message that killing Laban was wrong?
Drifting wrote: If the brass plates were such an integral part of the plan that it justified Laban being murered to prevent a nation dwindling in unbelief - what were they subsequently used for and why didn't they prevent the Nephite nation (who took the plates) dwindling in unbelief?
There are a lot of problems with this story. One being the need to kill him to get the plates. The other is why the plates would be needed since Nephi's group was supposed to be capable of recording any laws from God, and were doing so, so no plates would be needed. The worst is the idea of brass plates containing the books of the Bible up to Isiah and including books not in our current Bible. There is a reason metal was not used except in rare occasions, and even then only small amounts of text were recorded. Nephi would have needed a team of men to carry them all.
Why did Lehi need those specific plates? I don't think this is ever adequately addressed.
Do Mormons imagine that there was only one copy of that material in all of Israel at that time? If this was so important, would there not have been other copies of it? Do Mormons imagine that people would gather at Laban's house every weekend to hear the precious words recited from the only place they were to be found?
Obviously there were other copies (assuming the Book of Mormon is true), since Nephi stole the plates containing parts of the Old Testament, but we still have, uh, the Old Testament. Apparently the disappearance of the Brass Plates of Laban didn't stop any of the other Jews of the time from having access to all those materials (except maybe Zenos and Zenock, which would explain why those two don't appear in the Old Testament today).
So, couldn't Lehi's family have obtained one of the copies of that material other than the Brass Plates and brought that instead? Or, if it was so all-important that the copy be on a long-lasting medium, could not they have brought, say, a parchment copy of the materials and then transcribed it all onto plates that Nephi would manufacture at a later date, in order to preserve them?
Please don't even try to argue that Nephi couldn't have done this, because later on in the story we find that Nephi was able to build an entire ship, along with all the tools necessary, essentially from scratch. And then, of course, Nephi supposedly did exactly what I'm suggesting (ie: make some plates and copy stuff onto it) because, after all, the Book of Mormon is supposedly a compilation of various plates created and recorded on by Nephite prophets all the way back to Nephi himself.
So we have these Brass Plates that are so critical that God orders Nephi to murder a man in cold blood to obtain them. The material on those plates apparently exists in various copies in Israel at the time, but only these specific brass plates will do. It absolutely must be this specific copy, of all copies.
Why?
The whole story, not just the murder of Laban, but the whole claim surrounding the plates themselves, just sounds totally bogus.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Sethbag wrote:Why did Lehi need those specific plates? I don't think this is ever adequately addressed.
Do Mormons imagine that there was only one copy of that material in all of Israel at that time? If this was so important, would there not have been other copies of it? Do Mormons imagine that people would gather at Laban's house every weekend to hear the precious words recited from the only place they were to be found?
Obviously there were other copies (assuming the Book of Mormon is true), since Nephi stole the plates containing parts of the Old Testament, but we still have, uh, the Old Testament. Apparently the disappearance of the Brass Plates of Laban didn't stop any of the other Jews of the time from having access to all those materials (except maybe Zenos and Zenock, which would explain why those two don't appear in the Old Testament today).
So, couldn't Lehi's family have obtained one of the copies of that material other than the Brass Plates and brought that instead? Or, if it was so all-important that the copy be on a long-lasting medium, could not they have brought, say, a parchment copy of the materials and then transcribed it all onto plates that Nephi would manufacture at a later date, in order to preserve them?
Please don't even try to argue that Nephi couldn't have done this, because later on in the story we find that Nephi was able to build an entire ship, along with all the tools necessary, essentially from scratch. And then, of course, Nephi supposedly did exactly what I'm suggesting (ie: make some plates and copy stuff onto it) because, after all, the Book of Mormon is supposedly a compilation of various plates created and recorded on by Nephite prophets all the way back to Nephi himself.
So we have these Brass Plates that are so critical that God orders Nephi to murder a man in cold blood to obtain them. The material on those plates apparently exists in various copies in Israel at the time, but only these specific brass plates will do. It absolutely must be this specific copy, of all copies.
Why?
The whole story, not just the murder of Laban, but the whole claim surrounding the plates themselves, just sounds totally bogus.
Why? God could simply * make the parchment act like tyvek, * put it on a microdot and give Nephi a device to read it * copy it to NAND memory and give Nephi an Android tab
Or was God lacking in imagination?
NOMinal member
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
Sethbag wrote:Why did Lehi need those specific plates? I don't think this is ever adequately addressed.
Do Mormons imagine that there was only one copy of that material in all of Israel at that time? If this was so important, would there not have been other copies of it? Do Mormons imagine that people would gather at Laban's house every weekend to hear the precious words recited from the only place they were to be found?
Obviously there were other copies (assuming the Book of Mormon is true), since Nephi stole the plates containing parts of the Old Testament, but we still have, uh, the Old Testament. Apparently the disappearance of the Brass Plates of Laban didn't stop any of the other Jews of the time from having access to all those materials (except maybe Zenos and Zenock, which would explain why those two don't appear in the Old Testament today).
So, couldn't Lehi's family have obtained one of the copies of that material other than the Brass Plates and brought that instead? Or, if it was so all-important that the copy be on a long-lasting medium, could not they have brought, say, a parchment copy of the materials and then transcribed it all onto plates that Nephi would manufacture at a later date, in order to preserve them?
Please don't even try to argue that Nephi couldn't have done this, because later on in the story we find that Nephi was able to build an entire ship, along with all the tools necessary, essentially from scratch. And then, of course, Nephi supposedly did exactly what I'm suggesting (ie: make some plates and copy stuff onto it) because, after all, the Book of Mormon is supposedly a compilation of various plates created and recorded on by Nephite prophets all the way back to Nephi himself.
So we have these Brass Plates that are so critical that God orders Nephi to murder a man in cold blood to obtain them. The material on those plates apparently exists in various copies in Israel at the time, but only these specific brass plates will do. It absolutely must be this specific copy, of all copies.
Why?
The whole story, not just the murder of Laban, but the whole claim surrounding the plates themselves, just sounds totally bogus.
Why? God could simply * make the parchment act like tyvek, * put it on a microdot and give Nephi a device to read it * copy it to NAND memory and give Nephi an Android tab
Or was God lacking in imagination?
These trials aren't for God, they were for Nephi and those involved. Of course God could have reproduced the records. That isn't the point.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Why did it have to be, specifically, Laban's copy of the records? We must presume that various copies existed, of which Laban's was only one. What was so special about Laban's specific copy that it was necessary that Nephi murder him in order to get it?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Sethbag wrote:Tobin, would you mind addressing my post?
Why did it have to be, specifically, Laban's copy of the records? We must presume that various copies existed, of which Laban's was only one. What was so special about Laban's specific copy that it was necessary that Nephi murder him in order to get it?
I don't think the brass plates were a dime a dozen that you picked up at your local store during that period. Any types of records, even one as rugged as brass plates would have been highly unique and precious. Also, this wasn't a trial just for Nephi and company, it was for Laban as well. The Lord was trying him and he demonstrated the evil in his character. The Lord didn't force him to have a murderous intent towards Nephi and his brothers. He didn't make him celebrate his ill gotten gains in drunken debauchery. However, once he had fallen into his stupor and was ripe in inquity, the Lord passed judgement upon him as he will with us all. We either can see how far we are willing to fall or how close to the Lord we are willing to get. That us up to us, but the judgements of God will come regardless. There is no other explanation necessary.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Sethbag wrote:Tobin, would you mind addressing my post?
Why did it have to be, specifically, Laban's copy of the records? We must presume that various copies existed, of which Laban's was only one. What was so special about Laban's specific copy that it was necessary that Nephi murder him in order to get it?
I don't think the brass plates were a dime a dozen that you picked up at your local store during that period. Any types of records, even one as rugged as brass plates would have been highly unique and precious. Also, this wasn't a trial just for Nephi and company, it was for Laban as well. The Lord was trying him and he demonstrated the evil in his character. The Lord didn't force him to have a murderous intent towards Nephi and his brothers. He didn't make him celebrate his ill gotten gains in drunken debauchery. However, once he had fallen into his stupor and was ripe in inquity, the Lord passed judgement upon him as he will with us all. We either can see how far we are willing to fall or how close to the Lord we are willing to get. That us up to us, but the judgements of God will come regardless. There is no other explanation necessary.
Tobin, if the plates were necessary in preventing a nation dwindling in unbelief, how come the nation dwindled in unbelief thereby rendering the murder of Laban unnecessary?
What were the brass plates used for following their theft by Nephi?
What, in the scriptural evidence has led you to conclude Laban had been out celebrating his ill gotten gains?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator