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If one needed a clear smoking gun this should be it. How do TBM’s deal with the fact that Freemasonry is not ancient rites handed down from Solomon’s temple but rather created out of whole cloth from the stone cutter trade guilds of Europe in the Middle Ages?

Joseph Smith claimed Freemasonry to be ancient priesthood rites handed down over the centuries from Solomon’s Temple and that he was simply restoring the true endowment. The following quote by Heber Kimball is just one of many that clearly show what Prophets and leaders have taught since the Mormon Endowment was created:

"Bro Joseph Ses Masonary was taken from preasthood but has become degen[e]rated. But menny things are perfect.” (Letter from Heber C. Kimball to Parley P. Pratt, June 17, 1842)


This very issue is one of the nails in the coffin for me. Let me give you a personal experience I had while on my mission to England in the mid-1980’s.

I had been out for roughly 1 year, my companion and I were going door-to-door up in the Lake District (Northern England). We knocked on this gentleman’s door, he answered and after I gave our introduction he explained to me that he was very familiar with the Mormons. I asked how? He then proceeded to explain to me that he was a full Mason and was very familiar with our Temple endowment. I was a 20 year old naïve white boy from Utah, who knew very little about early church history, and I certainly did not know the extent of Joseph’s involvement in Freemasonry. He continued to explain to me that Joseph Smith was a Mason and that he knew the Mormon Temple rites. Doubtingly I asked him to prove it, which he did, on his front door step, where he proceeded to go through the “5 points of fellowship” with me, giving me all the proper verbiage and body positions along with it. My companion and I were blown away! We left his door with more questions than answers. How did he know all that? Was I going to be struck dead for defiling the Temple on this man’s front door step? Was he just an inactive Mormon thereby explaining how he could know our Temple ceremony? We had no answers. That evening back at our flat I started a study session of desperation on the subject of Mormonism and Masonry until I found the answers I needed. I read in one of the many church books I had that Masonry was a perverted form of the Endowment that had been handed down from Solomon’s Temple and that Joseph had restored the true Endowment in our day. This answer saved my new and fragile testimony and satisfied me for 25 years, until today…

Today, equipped with more information on the subject of Freemasonry, we now know the Temple Endowment and Freemasonry have nothing to do with the Temple in Solomon’s day. The Bible does not support anything from the LDS Temple Ceremony being in Solomon's temple. Solomon's temple dealt with things such as animal sacrifices. None of the ordinances performed in LDS temples, such as endowments, baptism for the dead, and eternal marriage, were performed in the Biblical temple.

John Lynch, head of FAIR confirms in a mormonstories.org podcast that the Masons did not have the temple ceremony from Solomon's time. Also Greg Kearney, a lifelong, multi-generational Mormon and Master Mason who is also a contributor to FAIR confirms that the Masonry Rituals do not come from Solomon's Temple.

How do TBM’s deal with this knowledge? Surly we can’t just keep explaining away the problems of this magnitude.

Dcharle wrote:If one needed a clear smoking gun this should be it. How do TBM’s deal with the fact that Freemasonry is not ancient rites handed down from Solomon’s temple but rather created out of whole cloth from the stone cutter trade guilds of Europe in the Middle Ages?

So what?

Dcharle wrote:Joseph Smith claimed Freemasonry to be ancient priesthood rites handed down over the centuries from Solomon’s Temple and that he was simply restoring the true endowment. The following quote by Heber Kimball is just one of many that clearly show what Prophets and leaders have taught since the Mormon Endowment was created:

Bro Joseph Ses Masonary was taken from preasthood but has become degen[e]rated. But menny things are perfect.” (Letter from Heber C. Kimball to Parley P. Pratt, June 17, 1842)

Not really.

Dcharle wrote:This very issue is one of the nails in the coffin for me. Let me give you a personal experience I had while on my mission to England in the mid-1980’s.

I had been out for roughly 1 year, my companion and I were going door-to-door up in the Lake District (Northern England). We knocked on this gentleman’s door, he answered and after I gave our introduction he explained to me that he was very familiar with the Mormons. I asked how? He then proceeded to explain to me that he was a full Mason and was very familiar with our Temple endowment. I was a 20 year old naïve white boy from Utah, knew very little about early church history and certainly did not know about Joseph’s involvement in Freemasonry. He continued to explain to me that Joseph Smith was a Mason and that he knew the Mormon Temple rites. Doubtingly I asked him to prove it, which he did, on his front door step he proceeded to go through the “5 points of fellowship” with me, giving me all the proper verbiage and body positions along with it. My companion and I were blown away! We left his door step with more questions than answers. How did he know all that? Was I going to be struck dead for defiling the Temple on this man’s front door? Was he just an inactive Mormon explaining how he could know our Temple ceremony? We had no answers. That evening back at our flat I started a study session of desperation on the subject of Mormonism and Masonry until I found the answers I needed. I read in one of the many church books I had that Masonry was a perverted form of the Endowment that had been handed down from Solomon’s Temple and that Joseph had restored the true Endowment in our day. This satisfied me for 25 years, until today…

You are confused. The temple ceremony is dressed up in the clothes of Free Masonry - one has little to do with the other.

Dcharle wrote:We now know the Temple Endowment has nothing to do with the Temple in Solomon’s day. The Bible does not support anything from the LDS Temple Ceremony being in Solomon's temple. Solomon's temple dealt with things such as animal sacrifices. None of the ordinances performed in LDS temples, such as endowments, baptism for the dead, and eternal marriage, were performed in the Biblical temple.

Of course it doesn't. Again, a HUGE SO WHAT?

Dcharle wrote:John Lynch, head of FAIR confirms in a mormonstories.org podcast that the Masons did not have the temple ceremony from Solomon's time. Also Greg Kearney, a lifelong, multi-generational Mormon and Master Mason who is also a contributor to FAIR confirms that the Masonry Rituals do not come from Solomon's Temple.

How do TBM’s deal with this knowledge? Surly we can’t just keep explaining away the problems of this magnitude.

TBM's shouldn't make any assumption that Free Masonry has anything to do with the endowment or that modern-day endowment was practiced in Solomon's temple. Both assumptions are extremely stupid. It is like assuming Roman Senators wore modern suits like US Senators do simply because both were senators. It is complete non-sense.

Tobin,

Is this another area where you think Joseph Smith was wrong about the process or history (like thinking he could translate Egyptian) but some how managed to produce what God wanted anyways?

Fence Sitter wrote:Tobin,

Is this another area where you think Joseph Smith was wrong about the process or history (like thinking he could translate Egyptian) but some how managed to produce what God wanted anyways?

I made no such assertion. Joseph Smith dressed up the endowment in Free Masonry - so what? If Joseph Smith had revealed the endowment today, I very much doubt he'd make that choice. And there is no reason that Mormonism needs to keep the Free Masonry clothes that the endowment is dressed in either. In fact, they have removed parts already. I hope they'll continue since it really isn't necessary at all.

And as I've stated, there are very many other areas of the temple including garments that I would like to see changed and modernized too.

Fence Sitter wrote:Tobin,

Is this another area where you think Joseph Smith was wrong about the process or history (like thinking he could translate Egyptian) but some how managed to produce what God wanted anyways?

Joseph and God. Dumb and Dumber. Probably the worst arguments I have seen to protect a belief.

Why is the story of Hyrum Abiff told during the ceremony if it is nothing to do with it? Just because the paper trail ends in the 15th century doesn't mean that is where the craft began.

Josephs technicoloured dream coat, was nothing of the sort.
it was a symbol of his priesthood, it was more like the enlarged hems and boarders of the masonry.

Trouble is like religion it is all scraps of decomposing paper which is why ritual was also important.

acting out stories is part of the magic, trouble is each generation excludes or changes bits then it begins to lose its meaning and eventually becomes meaning less.

So, if the Mormon temple endowment is "dressed up in freemasonry" by Joseph Smith can it still be claimed as a necessary part of "Christian" faith and a have a legitimate God inspired purpose? What is its purpose if this is true?

This is where I am torn.

If there is a God, he leaves only the faintest trail of evidence, so faith is the overruling factor.
there are a lot of faint trails in Mormonism, which is why I clung to it for so long.

A Mason is obliged by his Tenure, to obey the moral law; and if he rightly understands the Art, he will never be a stupid Atheist nor an irreligious Libertine. But though in ancient times Masons were charged in every country to be of the religion of that country or nation, whatever it was, yet it is now thought more expedient only to oblige them to that religion in which all men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves: that is, to be Good men and True, or Men of Honour and Honesty, by whatever Denomination or Persuasion they may be distinguished; whereby Masonry becomes the Centre of Union and the Means of conciliating true Friendship among persons that must have remained at a perpetual distance.

In Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach) form the major part of the Noachide Laws, or Noahide Code.[1] This code is a set of moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God[2] as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of mankind.[3][4] According to religious Judaism, any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a righteous gentile, and is assured of a place in the world to come (Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous.[5][6] Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and may often network in Jewish synagogues.[citation needed]
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are[7]
Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
Establishment of courts of law
Noachide Laws comprise the six laws which were given to Adam in the Garden of Eden, according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[8] and a seventh one, which was added after the Flood of Noah. Later, at the Revelation at Sinai, the Seven Laws of Noah were re-given to humanity and embedded in the 613 Laws given to the Children of Israel along with the Ten Commandments, which are part of, and not separate from, the 613 mitzvot. These laws are derived from the Torah. According to religious Judaism, the 613 mitzvot or "commandments" given in the written Torah, as well as their reasonings in the oral Torah, were only issued to the Jews and are therefore binding only upon them, having inherited the obligation from their ancestors. At the same time, at Mount Sinai, the Children of Israel were given the obligation to teach other nations the embedded Noachide Laws.[citation needed] These laws also affect Jewish law in a number of ways.

Its about living higher laws...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot see the Maimonides' list 613 rules to live by.

There are some dumb rules and some not so dumb rules.

If True, Joseph Smith was a Prophet, If False, Joseph Smith was a Evil Genius!

In the words of GB Hinkley: Well, it's either true or false. If it's false, we're engaged in a great fraud. If it's true, it's the most important thing in the world. Now, that's the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that's exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [Sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That's our claim. That's where we stand, and that's where we fall, if we fall. But we don't. We just stand secure in that faith.

In the words of David O. McKay: "The purpose of the church is to make bad men good and good men better." where would the mankind be without conscience? back in the stone age.

Perhaps there is no need for mainstream religion now we have civil law makers and enforcers.

No sharia that's just a step back!

Dcharle wrote:Re: Freemasonry - The Smoking Gun

You are "confused".....

1. There is a difference between "elements" of historical Temple Worship, including Solomon's Temple being a PART of LDS Temple Worship and/or Masonry, than "everything" related is from Solomon's Temple.

No LDS including Joseph Smith ever believed the later, you people misrepresent him.

2. LDS Temple Worship using elements of Masonry also means nothing. Ever looked at "Christmas" lately??? As "Christian" practice that uses tons of things from historical Paganism etc.

Groups of all kinds including religions have adopted elements of other things and incorporated them into their worship, kept some similar meanings and changed others. Take the "Inverted Five Pointed Star"..... It existed in Judaism and Christianity all over their buildings and worship rights LONG before it became a "Satanic Symbol" that Christians falsely judge the Church over calling us Satanic simply because we also have the same or similar symbols on our Temples.

Take also elements of Masonry...... that LDS now use in our Temples.

GUESS WHAT..... Most of them ALSO existed long before in Judaism AND Christianity well before Mormons ever used them, AND before and while Masonry was using them.

Look up http://www.restorationhistory.com & http://www.restorationhistory.com/&ps.html at the "Wayback Machine" for 2003 at http://www.archive.org

There are LOT'S of evidences of LDS Temple practices found in historical Christian & Judaism worship. Masonry stuff didn't simply originate in Masonry, THEY ALSO GOT IT FROM ELSEWHERE!!!

One other point..... Temple Worship uses "symbols" to teach PRINCIPLES.....
It's one reason why LDS avoid the "Cross". That is simply not the "kind" of symbol we want to use concerning Christ and his message. In other words, the symbols don't matter in where they came from, who used them, why, etc..... Their only importance is what they mean to Mormons!!!

So SO WHAT if Masonry used them, getting them from all kinds of places, so what if Christmas symbols many of them came from Pagan Fertility Rights. SO WHAT???

Tell us again how this is somehow a "smoking gun"???

Oh Tobin.....

My friend, there is no need (in fact you shouldn't) to accept Anti-mormon negative premiss's and assumptions concerning the Church. There are in fact better arguments, better reasoning and factual information on every issue concerning the Church.

In other words, we don't need to try and "please" them, by saying things like "oh, we could maybe get rid of some things", etc. There is nothing wrong with the Temple Endowment or our Worship thereof.

This kind of thing drives me nuts when I hear faithful LDS say them. Even Scott Gordon did the same when he represented FAIR at some recent UVU panel presentation with two non-LDS on the panel. Many of the things he said just made me cringe, his political correctness, not giving good reasoning and answers but accepting their false premises, and then you could see their faces how they rightly had contempt for the Church in how stupid it or it's members were. Anyway, we don't do the Faith justice when we accept the false criticisms, and not give the better and more right answer, like I did above.

Just a thought.... :)