DiscussMormonism.com

I just registered yesterday and this is my first post.

A little about me first. I was born and raised Mormon. Descended from Charles C. Rich, one of Brigham's apostles. I served a partial mission in Oregon Portland. It was during 1993. I came home after 8 months because I had lost my testimony. I just couldn't teach others something I did not believe myself. The purge of the September Six had an effect. I had read Quinn, Lavina Anderson and Maxine Hanks. They had not written anything to merit excommunication. I realized then that the Church was no different than any other. It was the Catholic Church excommunicating Galileo, only now it's the 20th century. I had my name removed shortly after returning home. My family--mother, brother, sister and their families--are all still Temple going faithful. I have another sister who has left recently and no longer believes. She couldn't take what her three daughters were being taught in Primary any more.

Anyway, there's something about the Plan of Salvation that I don't get.

Supposedly, we were all present during a great war in heaven. Some sided with Jesus, some with Lucifer, others were less valiant (that’s a whole other thread).

Now, if we could make decisions whether to follow Jesus or Lucifer when we had direct evidence of their existence, why did our Heavenly Father send us out to be tested a second time? I learned in Sunday School that this life was mainly to gain a physical body and to test our faith (and to learn how to suffer?). But why the need for a SECOND test of whether we would follow Heavenly Father? Obviously, we could choose right from wrong in His presence. Was he not satisfied with our loyalty the first time? Did He want to only have the TRULY loving children return to live with Him someday? What kind of parent acts like that? Why were we able to make a decision based in free agency in the ABSENCE of faith but have to live ONLY by faith now in order to prove our agency?

Another way to think about it: why are we living in punishment for someone else's sin? Adam and Eve sinned by breaking Heavenly Father’s commandment to not eat the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. In fact, could it really have been a sin? Lucifer gives them the fruit because he’s trying to help Heavenly Father. Lucifer is trying to get back into Father’s favor. Lucifer states he is only doing what has been done on other worlds. If it wasn’t for Lucifer, the whole plan would have ground to a screeching halt.

Anyway, why are we all being punished because of Adam’s transgression? We are all born in sin. (Just because Mormon theology doesn’t call it Original Sin doesn’t mean Mormons don’t believe in it. Mormons might not believe a baby is born in sin, they just believe Original Sin settles into a person’s DNA at age 8.) We live by the sweat of our brow. We suffer and pain. We live outside of Heavenly Father’s presence. We die. Why weren't the rest of us created in the Garden of Eden and given the choice of eating the fruit for ourselves? Some may have chosen to stay in the garden paradise while others chose to take that step out into the cruel world. The Plan of Salvation could have even been set up as a greater-risk-equals-greater-reward scenario. If you chose to stay in the Garden, you automatically inherit the Terrestrial reward. If you choose to risk being cast out, you can gain the greater Celestial reward but you also risk succumbing to the Telestial reward. There’s no need of Outer Darkness.

Sorry for the wall of text. I've been itching to get some other opinions.

Hello and welcome aboard!

The Plan O' Salvation is a dung heap of issues.

Jason003 wrote:
Lucifer gives them the fruit because he’s trying to help Heavenly Father. Lucifer is trying to get back into Father’s favor.

Interesting. When I was a TBM I would have never thought that Lucifer might have been trying to repent...

Then the whole plan of salvation does not make any sense at all anyway.

"Ok kids. Here is the plan. I am going to send you down to earth and make you forget everything you know about me. Then I am going to hide my existence from you except for some really small clues and I will let lots of different religions start up and you have to choose the right one, so choose carefully. Then just to make things interesting I am going to give you all sorts of weaknesses and then punish you if you behave just like the way I made you. Most of you will live awful lives full of misery and hunger and cruelty. A few of you will have really nice and comfortable lives but for the most part your lives will suck because I am going to make you all weak. Don't worry though, I am going to have Jesus go down there and I will make sure he has my God DNA so he won't be weak like you and will live a perfect life and then I will punish him for you being weak and then some of you can kill him ok? Don't forget that I am doing all of this because I love you sooo much. Any Questions?"

Jason003 wrote:Now, if we could make decisions whether to follow Jesus or Lucifer when we had direct evidence of their existence, why did our Heavenly Father send us out to be tested a second time? I learned in Sunday School that this life was mainly to gain a physical body and to test our faith (and to learn how to suffer?). But why the need for a SECOND test of whether we would follow Heavenly Father? Obviously, we could choose right from wrong in His presence. Was he not satisfied with our loyalty the first time? Did He want to only have the TRULY loving children return to live with Him someday? What kind of parent acts like that? Why were we able to make a decision based in free agency in the ABSENCE of faith but have to live ONLY by faith now in order to prove our agency?

I like to bring this up anytime people imply that we need doubt to have free agency. The argument just doesn't work within Mormonism.

Welcome to the board. Nice first post.

son of Ishmael wrote:

Jason003 wrote: Lucifer gives them the fruit because he’s trying to help Heavenly Father. Lucifer is trying to get back into Father’s favor.

Interesting. When I was a TBM I would have never thought that Lucifer might have been trying to repent...

Apparently Michael Moorcock wasn't a TBM...

In the 'Bodiless SMACKDOWN: Holy Ghost v Satan' thread I wrote:The War Hound and the World's Pain is a 1981 fantasy novel by Michael Moorcock, the first of the "von Bek" series of novels.

The book is set in Europe ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. Its hero Ulrich von Bek is a mercenary and freethinker, who finds himself a damned soul in a castle owned by Lucifer. Much to his surprise, von Bek is charged by Lucifer with doing God's work, by finding the Holy Grail, the "cure for the world's pain," that will also cure Lucifer's pain by reconciling him with God. Only through doing this can von Bek save his soul.

After many adventures, von Bek eventually finds the Holy Grail, and discovers that it will set mankind on the path to self-redemption through rationality, without the help of God or the hindrance of Lucifer.

I liked that book - it is worth to read, as all of the von Bek series. (with the fictional characters as Ulrich von Bek, Lucifer, God ...)


by the way

Hey! at that time I had the PICTURES.
See the cover of the book there!

...

Jason003 wrote:Now, if we could make decisions whether to follow Jesus or Lucifer when we had direct evidence of their existence, why did our Heavenly Father send us out to be tested a second time? I learned in Sunday School that this life was mainly to gain a physical body ...

You already know the answer to your own question. This is an opportunity. The only point of this life is to get a physical body, everything else is a bonus.

Jason003 wrote:... to test our faith (and to learn how to suffer?).

To exist in this form is to know both joy and suffering. It is just part of being.

Jason003 wrote:But why the need for a SECOND test of whether we would follow Heavenly Father?

There is no SECOND test. That is not the point of this existence.

Jason003 wrote:Obviously, we could choose right from wrong in His presence. Was he not satisfied with our loyalty the first time?

Yes, that is why we inherited this form.

Jason003 wrote:Did He want to only have the TRULY loving children return to live with Him someday?

All of us will be saved and exalted, except those that rebel against God as Satan and his followers did. It is a FREE gift. You simply don't understand Mormonism.

Jason003 wrote:What kind of parent acts like that?

Again, you are mistaken. No unclean thing can be in the presense of God and it would be WORSE for them to be there than apart. They are unwilling to do as God commands and so it is better for them to be separate from God.

Jason003 wrote:Why were we able to make a decision based in free agency in the ABSENCE of faith but have to live ONLY by faith now in order to prove our agency?

There is NO free agency (at least as you seem to think about it). We are going to do what we are going to do. God already knows what we are going to do because he can see what we have done, are doing and will do. It is just a natural consequence of our space-time and the physics of relativity. We are simply here to exist and choose to either follow God or not. But we can not fool God. And I'm sure all this was shown to us before we came and what we were going be and choose. Regardless of that, we chose to be and come anyway.

Jason003 wrote:Another way to think about it: why are we living in punishment for someone else's sin? Adam and Eve sinned by breaking Heavenly Father’s commandment to not eat the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. In fact, could it really have been a sin? Lucifer gives them the fruit because he’s trying to help Heavenly Father. Lucifer is trying to get back into Father’s favor. Lucifer states he is only doing what has been done on other worlds. If it wasn’t for Lucifer, the whole plan would have ground to a screeching halt.

You seem to be confused. Mormons don't believe in original sin.

Jason003 wrote:Anyway, why are we all being punished because of Adam’s transgression? We are all born in sin. (Just because Mormon theology doesn’t call it Original Sin doesn’t mean Mormons don’t believe in it. Mormons might not believe a baby is born in sin, they just believe Original Sin settles into a person’s DNA at age 8.) We live by the sweat of our brow. We suffer and pain. We live outside of Heavenly Father’s presence. We die. Why weren't the rest of us created in the Garden of Eden and given the choice of eating the fruit for ourselves? Some may have chosen to stay in the garden paradise while others chose to take that step out into the cruel world. The Plan of Salvation could have even been set up as a greater-risk-equals-greater-reward scenario. If you chose to stay in the Garden, you automatically inherit the Terrestrial reward. If you choose to risk being cast out, you can gain the greater Celestial reward but you also risk succumbing to the Telestial reward. There’s no need of Outer Darkness.

You are simply confused. Again, Mormons do not believe in original sin. God already knew what Adam and Eve were going to do and anticipated that. Otherwise, he wouldn't have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. Adam and Eve chose to do what they did so WE COULD BE. And degress of glory and no glory is something we choose by either doing what God asks or not. The DEGREE of our willingness to follow God is just part of our nature. It is what you are. If you are willing to seek God, speak with him and do all he asks and does - then you will achieve the highest degree. If you are unwilling, you will obtain a lesser degree.

The biggest flaw of the Plan is that it is easier to achieve Exaltation by not following the Plan until the next life.

Who has the hardest route to Exaltation?
a. The child who dies before the age of accountability.
b. A person who is baptised at 8 and endures until the end when they die at 85.
c. A person who does not join the Church at all in this life and dies at 85 having drank, smoked, ate lots of meat, swore a lot etc.

Answer according to Mormon teachings:
a. The child in this example has not had the chance to be accountable for their actions and so has done nothing wrong.
b. This person is fully accountable for all their activities on earth.
c. This person has not had the chance to be accountable for their actions and so has done nothing wrong.

Both child 'a.' and person 'c.' can be exalted lickety split by the back door of posthumous baptism (which when 'accepted' by the deceased instantly makes them 100% righteous). Person 'b.' has no such escape clause. No matter how much striving person 'b.' does within Mormonism, no matter how hard they work at it, the absolute best they can hope for is to achieve the same as child 'a.' and person 'c.' are guaranteed by the simple virtue of the fact that they weren't subject to the rules of the Plan of Salvation in this life.

At death, righteous spirits live in a temporary state called paradise. Alma the Younger teaches us “paradise [is] a state of rest, a state of peace, where [the righteous] shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.” 18 The unrighteous spirits dwell in spirit prison, sometimes referred to as hell.

http://www.LDS.org/general-conference/2 ... n?lang=eng

What a stupid plan...

Mr man GOD a.k.a. ‘Eloheim’ and Mrs woman god were bored one eternity, so they decided to do what they always did throughout eternity and went intelligence gathering in the midst of space.

When they got home they were feeling creative so they made themselves some spirit children, using the intel they had just collected.

It was clear to him that some of those spirit children were made from more intelligence than others so he decided to put them ones in charge of the less intelligent ones.

Before long some were asking “Dad, How come we are just ghosts, why don’t we have REAL bodies?”

So GOD says Ok, let’s have a competition anyone who takes part gets a REAL body.

Jehovah a.k.a. ‘Word,’ and Lucifer a.k.a. ‘Satan,’ you’re the oldest and cleverest; you decide the rules of the game and get all the others involved.

Jehovah said “Who wants to go to play the game of “LIFE”
it’s a mixture of Eloheim hide and seek and Eloheim says?

Here’s the rules:
At the beginning of the game, everyone has their memory of this life erased.

Eloheim picks one of each gender and gives the man a REAL body to start the game off, we’ll then anaesthetise him, cut him open take out one of his ribs and close it back up, form a woman from it.

At this point Satan pipes up and says hang on what is the point of that?
Why not just create her like you created him?

Jehovah: Don’t question me; I’m more intelligent than you. I know why, but I am not going to tell anyone, my logic, my game, my rules.

Anyway, I’ll tell them they can eat from all the trees in the garden, but not the tree of knowledge of good and evil, I’ll also tell them to multiply like the birds and bees, but at the same time, they won’t be able to have babies till they eat from the tree. When they eventually know the difference between good and evil, they’ll start to rapidly age and die.

Satan: Wait, wait, wait. That’s daft! You’re commanding them NOT to do something before they get the ability to understand the difference between DO and DO NOT?
Then you’re going to punish them for it. They then have to incestuously copulate to bring the rest of us into the game? What planet are you on?

How are you going to get them to eat the fruit to start the game?

Jehovah: Easy, I’ll get a snake to talk them into it.

Satan: Ok, if Dad chooses your plan over mine, I will gladly be that snake, because it ain’t gonna happen!

Jehovah: I’ll only tell the 1st man at the start of the game, the rules then as people join 1 by 1 they have to rely on what the people that have been playing before, tell them is true or not.

Anyone who gets fooled by someone else telling them what to do, in mine or Gods name can’t come back here to live with Dad, but has to live on the planet below this one, which is slightly darker and the ones who really mess up below that and the really bad ones below that and so on.

I am going to go down half way through and show everyone how easy it is to play a perfect game.

Satan: Yeah But, if you play the game by your own rules, you’ll have had your memory erased, how will you know the rules?

Jehovah: my game, my rules! I’ll get DAD to come down and mix his genes with one of the girls. Therefore I’ll be born part GOD and part human; no one will know my memory’s not entirely wiped.

Satan: What? You are going to cheat!

Satan: I’d hate to think what they’ll do to you, when they find out.

Enter GOD: Right what’s happening you two, have you told everyone the rules?

Satan: Yeah, about that… I’m just going to take my lot for a walk, because Jehovah’s game plan is MUCKED UP!!!

GOD: Right so you and your lot don’t get the reward of a REAL body, if you don’t take part.

Satan: Bothered?

I am out of here!

Who’s with me?

Mktavish wrote:

Jason003 wrote:I just registered yesterday and this is my first post.

Now, if we could make decisions whether to follow Jesus or Lucifer when we had direct evidence of their existence, why did our Heavenly Father send us out to be tested a second time? I learned in Sunday School that this life was mainly to gain a physical body and to test our faith (and to learn how to suffer?). But why the need for a SECOND test of whether we would follow Heavenly Father? Obviously, we could choose right from wrong in His presence. Was he not satisfied with our loyalty the first time? Did He want to only have the TRULY loving children return to live with Him someday? What kind of parent acts like that? Why were we able to make a decision based in free agency in the ABSENCE of faith but have to live ONLY by faith now in order to prove our agency?

Just to awnser you with the way I see it.

First your discounting the whole other host of gods children that didn't side with him and therefore didn't get to advance to the next level. They failed the first easy test. Then god has to step things up in order to test us further , I mean how challenged would we be if the test was a redo of the same content? Plus that is not conducive to expanding ones knowledge or growing in character. There is more than ample evidence in the world to suggest that adversity is what builds an organisms strength , therefore more able to survive. What if this life is just a mere conditioning of the soul in order to survive the real world so to speak? Or maybe the next test ...

This is all just basic 101 stuff you can observe out in the world as we know it. You don't even have to believe in God to know its true.

You guys just don't understand the Plan of Salvation. We are here to be tested to see if we will believe and have faith with no evidence. If we can show we will, then we fail the test. This means it won't matter what God or religion you have faith in without good evidence.