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A question for Mormons about Spirit Beings?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:28 pm
by _PrickKicker
So according to Joseph Smith and the LDS church we are the spirit children of God, rumour has it that God has many Wives.
So it makes perfect sense right??? Thinking about How Man and his Wives make babies.
No, it doesn't make any sense... What it does, is it creates a stupor of thought.
We are not his actual literal children as in offspring, because if we were then we would all be immortal beings.
So in order for that to work we would have to go through some kind of immortal creation inside our heavenly mother then go through a immortal birth, through immortal child development / ageing process and then at some point stop ageing, right?
So then we would have to all start life like Adam and Eve, waking up as immortal beings on the earth going through the nonsense process of the fall...
But that is not how we all start life so that notion is false.
So, No. I does not make sense!
If God 'the spirit is our heavenly father', who has many spirit wives, then, I could accept that we existed as spirits before we came to earth.
So it makes perfect sense right??? Thinking about How Man and his Wives make babies.
No, this too doesn't make any sense... What it does Again, is create a stupor of thought.
We are not 'God the spirits' actual literal spirit children as in offspring, because if we were then we would all be spirit beings.
but in order for that to work we would have to go through some kind of spiritual creation and birth, child development / ageing process and then at some point stop ageing, right?
Sound familiar?
We would have to all start life moulded from clay, like Adam with our spirits breathed into our adult bodies and women created like Eve from some kind of DNA test-tube rapid growth woman...
But that is not how we all start life, and that then creates confusion when it comes to understanding how adult spirits fit into in babies bodies. and the myriad of complications of spirits and bodies, possession and revelations, temptations and visions / hallucinations. Being able to control things using only the power of the spirit = Mind over matter.
If living things reproduce after their own kind then we are nothing but the sons of men / Homo-sapiens.
Whose personalities and behaviours and characters develop along with the brain as we grow, increasing thought provocation by developmental and environmental stimuli.
The soapbox is now yours... Please Explain, Prove me wrong or share your belief.
Re: A question for Mormons about Spirit Beings?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:23 pm
by _subgenius
PrickKicker wrote:We are not his actual literal children as in offspring, because if we were then we would all be immortal beings.
Jesus was the Son of God and He was not immortal.
PrickKicker wrote:So in order for that to work we would have to go through some kind of immortal creation inside our heavenly mother then go through a immortal birth, through immortal child development / ageing process and then at some point stop ageing, right?
not necessarily. Immortal procreation amongst immortals does not give one any reason to assume that there is a gestation period, infancy, etc...
PrickKicker wrote:So then we would have to all start life like Adam and Eve, waking up as immortal beings on the earth going through the nonsense process of the fall...
But that is not how we all start life so that notion is false.
how so?
PrickKicker wrote:So, No. I does not make sense!
yes, you "does not"
PrickKicker wrote:We would have to all start life moulded from clay, like Adam with our spirits breathed into our adult bodies and women created like Eve from some kind of DNA test-tube rapid growth woman...
So, you are making the rules now, not God...got it!
PrickKicker wrote:But that is not how we all start life, and that then creates confusion when it comes to understanding how adult spirits fit into in babies bodies. and the myriad of complications of spirits and bodies, possession and revelations, temptations and visions / hallucinations. Being able to control things using only the power of the spirit = Mind over matter.
there is no real stretch of the imagination required here. When there were no human bodies, lets call them vessels, God created them in order to fulfill a purpose. He also designed them so as to replicate more vessels for both an earthly and spiritual purpose. This way He did not have to keep making each one out of dirt and ribs. It is actually an ingenious design.
PrickKicker wrote:If living things reproduce after their own kind then we are nothing but the sons of men / Homo-sapiens.
Whose personalities and behaviours and characters develop along with the brain as we grow, increasing thought provocation by developmental and environmental stimuli.
The Catholics believe what you are driving at...that everyone "inherited" their soul from Adam and that is why they have original sin...that just like blue eyes, a soul is passed on from previous generations. Obviously our church takes a different position.
Yes, our bodies are of this earth, just as Adam's was but the soul is altogether a different subject...if you choose to believe it is.
Perhaps now is a good time to have a deeper discussion about Frankenstein's monster.
PrickKicker wrote:The soapbox is now yours... Please Explain, Prove me wrong or share your belief.
It is not a challenge of proving you wrong or right..it is whether you are reasonable or not.
And on some things you are and others you are not.
Re: A question for Mormons about Spirit Beings?
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:06 pm
by _PrickKicker
subgenius wrote:PrickKicker wrote:We are not his actual literal children as in offspring, because if we were then we would all be immortal beings.
Jesus was the Son of God and He was not immortal.
Although this is beyond the scope of the origin of man, I would like you to dig your hole deeper...I mean... Please don't stop there continue, explain how Jesus is the spirit child of God and also Gods only begotten in the flesh and the son of Mary?PrickKicker wrote:So in order for that to work we would have to go through some kind of immortal creation inside our heavenly mother then go through a immortal birth, through immortal child development / ageing process and then at some point stop ageing, right?
not necessarily. Immortal procreation amongst immortals does not give one any reason to assume that there is a gestation period, infancy, etc...
Please tell us more?
CFR?PrickKicker wrote:So then we would have to all start life like Adam and Eve, waking up as immortal beings on the earth going through the nonsense process of the fall...
But that is not how we all start life so that notion is false.
how so?
Because that is what I have been led to believe started the human race.PrickKicker wrote:So, No. I does not make sense!
yes, you "does not"
Hmm I missed the letter 'T' in iT...
PS: Grammar is Not one of my hang ups with the Book of Mormon, But I know it is one of your bug bares on here, are you of the same opinion about the Book of Mormon?PrickKicker wrote:We would have to all start life moulded from clay, like Adam with our spirits breathed into our adult bodies and women created like Eve from some kind of DNA test-tube rapid growth woman...
So, you are making the rules now, not God...got it!
How do you come to that conclusion?PrickKicker wrote:But that is not how we all start life, and that then creates confusion when it comes to understanding how adult spirits fit into in babies bodies. and the myriad of complications of spirits and bodies, possession and revelations, temptations and visions / hallucinations. Being able to control things using only the power of the spirit = Mind over matter.
there is no real stretch of the imagination required here. When there were no human bodies, lets call them vessels, God created them in order to fulfill a purpose. He also designed them so as to replicate more vessels for both an earthly and spiritual purpose. This way He did not have to keep making each one out of dirt and ribs. It is actually an ingenious design.
How do you come to this conclusion? CFR?PrickKicker wrote:If living things reproduce after their own kind then we are nothing but the sons of men / Homo-sapiens.
Whose personalities and behaviours and characters develop along with the brain as we grow, increasing thought provocation by developmental and environmental stimuli.
The Catholics believe what you are driving at...that everyone "inherited" their soul from Adam and that is why they have original sin...that just like blue eyes, a soul is passed on from previous generations. Obviously our church takes a different position.
Yes, our bodies are of this earth, just as Adam's was but the soul is altogether a different subject...if you choose to believe it is.
Perhaps now is a good time to have a deeper discussion about Frankenstein's monster.
You are right Frankenstein's monster has similarities with the Creation of Adam. Really Catholics believe humans have no spirit? I knew JWs believed this but not Catholics? PrickKicker wrote:The soapbox is now yours... Please Explain, Prove me wrong or share your belief.
It is not a challenge of proving you wrong or right..it is whether you are reasonable or not.
And on some things you are and others you are not.
I am more than open to REASON, anything reasonable by definition must be believable, possible or plausible.
Re: A question for Mormons about Spirit Beings?
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:20 am
by _ldsfaqs
The answer is simple.....
God is our "Father" in the same way WE are "Fathers" of our children.
Part of them come from us, our matter, but their spirits are not ours and only on loan to us from the Father.
In other words, even though we are children of the Father in a sense, this is why we must be "adopted" as the scripture states because are aren't entirely his children until we become as He is. Thus, the Father is the Father of our spirits the same way we are fathers of our children. Are, but also aren't.
Meaning, we existed previously as intelligences and then the Father sired us creating our spirits is how I'm guessing it worked.
Remember that spirit is still matter, but more refined..... Similar to Energy having form and void, can be felt, made up of particles, etc. God doesn't go around with a "body".... While he has one, he's the master of all matter and spirit, thus he moves and lives on a different plane than us "traditional" mortals with spirits and a body.
When LDS say "God has a body", we aren't saying he's walking around the universe in "mortal" form. We are saying he is spirit and body united just as the Bible states. Corruption to incorruption, "changed" a resurrected form, not a mortal form.
LDS Theology makes absolute perfect logical sense.
Re: A question for Mormons about Spirit Beings?
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:33 am
by _ludwigm
ldsfaqs wrote:LDS Theology makes absolute perfect logical sense.
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Re: A question for Mormons about Spirit Beings?
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:54 am
by _ldsfaqs
It's your false, perverted, and incomplete understanding of it that makes it not make sense in your mind.
I have no interest in man-made religion, I know such religions well.
If the Church wasn't literally true and everything perfectly fit, I wouldn't be in it.
Re: A question for Mormons about Spirit Beings?
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:30 am
by _PrickKicker
ldsfaqs wrote:The answer is simple.....
God is our "Father" in the same way WE are "Fathers" of our children.
Part of them come from us, our matter, but their spirits are not ours and only on loan to us from the Father.
In other words, even though we are children of the Father in a sense, this is why we must be "adopted" as the scripture states because are aren't entirely his children until we become as He is. Thus, the Father is the Father of our spirits the same way we are fathers of our children. Are, but also aren't.
Meaning, we existed previously as intelligences and then the Father sired us creating our spirits is howI'm guessing it worked.
Remember that spirit is still matter, but more refined..... Similar to Energy having form and void, can be felt, made up of particles, etc. God doesn't go around with a "body".... While he has one, he's the master of all matter and spirit, thus he moves and lives on a different plane than us "traditional" mortals with spirits and a body.
When LDS say "God has a body", we aren't saying he's walking around the universe in "mortal" form. We are saying he is spirit and body united just as the Bible states. Corruption to incorruption, "changed" a resurrected form, not a mortal form.
LDS Theology makes absolute perfect logical sense.
Simple! Thank You for that, it all makes absolute perfect logical sense, in the same way that the Book of Mormon and startrek make perfect logical sense
Re: A question for Mormons about Spirit Beings?
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:16 pm
by _Mktavish
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Re: A question for Mormons about Spirit Beings?
Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:48 pm
by _LittleNipper
subgenius wrote:PrickKicker wrote:We are not his actual literal children as in offspring, because if we were then we would all be immortal beings.
Jesus was the Son of God and He was not immortal.
Please see:
http://www.gilead.ws/page/page/798907.htmJesus gave up His life, no one took it from Him. He laid it down and has the power to take it up again.
Re: A question for Mormons about Spirit Beings?
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:01 am
by _Quasimodo
ldsfaqs wrote:It's your false, perverted, and incomplete understanding of it that makes it not make sense in your mind.
I have no interest in man-made religion, I know such religions well.
If the Church wasn't literally true and everything perfectly fit, I wouldn't be in it.
I've had more than a few doubts about the 'Church', myself. The fact that you are in it gives substance to my doubts. The best thing you could do to advance the position of the 'Church' would be to not talk about it much.
