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“When our wagon gets stuck in the mud, God is much more likely to assist the man who gets out to push than the man who merely raises his voice in prayer—no matter how eloquent the oration.”
― Dieter F. Uchtdorf

Is the notion expressed in this quote by Dieter tantamount to a more direct indictment on those who would consider the "sola gratia" argument valid?

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Prayer, in my opinion, is a comfort blanket for the emotions.
It doesn't do any physical good but it has the ability, for people who believe in prayer, to provide them with mental relief. In Diet's example, the prayer is more likely to work for the wagon owner who gets out and pushes it out from the mud because he, the wagon owner, got out and pushed it from the mud. Of course, if he wishes to give God the credit for it then that's up to him.

Mktavish wrote:Yes in my opinion ... But grace also disappears by useing ones effort to gauge anothers by.

but not when one gauges their own effort, correct?

Drifting wrote:Prayer, in my opinion, is a comfort blanket for the emotions.
It doesn't do any physical good

yet modern science disagrees with you...interesting....expected, but interesting.

Drifting wrote: but it has the ability, for people who believe in prayer, to provide them with mental relief. In Diet's example, the prayer is more likely to work for the wagon owner who gets out and pushes it out from the mud because he, the wagon owner, got out and pushed it from the mud. Of course, if he wishes to give God the credit for it then that's up to him.

"it" ? has the ability....a prayer is not an "it" with an ability is it?

please, explain what you mean by this "ability"......is the prayer's ability, not our ability in your way of thinking?

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subgenius wrote:“When our wagon gets stuck in the mud, God is much more likely to assist the man who gets out to push than the man who merely raises his voice in prayer—no matter how eloquent the oration.”
― Dieter F. Uchtdorf

Is the notion expressed in this quote by Dieter tantamount to a more direct indictment on those who would consider the "sola gratia" argument valid?

Hey, that is a very pragmatic message Elder Uchtdorf said.

by the way, although "sola gratia" is a very natural thing, the Church prefers you do it as a couple under the sanctity of marriage.

Mktavish wrote: in my opinion prayer has no ability without faith ... so its really not the praying but the level of belief that is what we seek to employ through prayer ... except ofcourse the servitude. But then that's just faith in servitude to god granting gifts.

In the end I see it as what did it accomplish , not what route you took. Believing in god or believing in self can have the same results.

And faith is nothing more than religious optimism induced by either peers or self, it is mental motivation or biological software drivers that initiate the actions of the hardware.

And prayer is just like talking to oneself in order to focus the mind on the task at hand.
(which subgenius believes is impossible, because that would be the brain thinking about telling itself what to think, which he doesn't believe it can do.)

moksha wrote:by the way, although "sola gratia" is a very natural thing, the Church prefers you do it as a couple under the sanctity of marriage.

Quality.