More Thoughts on Reincarnation

[_jo1952]

Here are more of my thoughts on reincarnation. When I have a chance (hopefully today or tomorrow), I will search other posts about reincarnation I did in the thread “Jesus did not have a wife”, and repost them here.

Hebrews 9:27-28 (KJV)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

(by the way, why do those who are saved need to look for Christ to appear the second time??) Let’s compare the above with this:

Revelation 20:14 (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Now for some reasoning. If man only dies once in the manner that most interpret Hebrews 9:27; why would it be necessary for God to do anything with “death” AFTER “the judgment”? In accordance with most mainstream Christian belief systems our spirit only experiences the death of a physical body once. Yet we find God is throwing “death” into the lake of fire.

If Christ overcame “death”, then why does “death” need to be thrown into the lake of fire? Indeed, look who else gets thrown in with “death” even though they have already died once in the flesh:

Revelation 20:15 (KJV)
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, there they are: those who had already died once in the flesh are still facing “death” because “death” is with them in the lake of fire.

Was Paul lying? Why are these people still facing death even though they have already died?

I would offer that neither John nor Paul lied. However, those who do not believe in reincarnation put the teachings of John and Paul into conflict with one another. What Paul is speaking about is the death of the flesh; not the spirit. Spirit cannot die; spirit CAN be separated from God which is an allegorical form of death. Flesh, OTOH, DOES die. Flesh is corruptible; spirit is not. John is speaking about spirit. Since spirit cannot die, we need to consider what John is trying to teach us. Spiritual death is separation from God. If the spirit died, then why is there talk about “eternal” damnation? How can something that is dead experience anything? How can something that is dead do any suffering? Also, we know that the spirit does not die when the flesh dies. Bodies of flesh can be blown up, burned to ashes, etc.; it returns to dust. The spirit waits for resurrection.

Since those who don’t believe in reincarnation usually use the single verse of Hebrews 9:27 to take their stand on, I will also point to some of Paul’s other teachings.

Acts 13:34 (KJV)
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Why would Paul make such a distinction like this? He just taught that Jesus, due to His Resurrection, would now no more return to corruption (death of the flesh---decay of the flesh). Jesus would no longer RETURN to corruption; In other words, Jesus would not return to the earth to physically die anymore. There are layered meanings here. Jesus only needed to be sacrificed once; but it is also teaching that the physical body Jesus' spirit occupied only died once, and would not again see corruption. In other words, His spirit would no longer be placed into any mortal physical body. This hints that other spirits DO return to corruptible bodies.

Romans 8:13-21 (KJV)
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

First, I have to agree with Peter in that Paul is difficult to understand. Wow, there are so many things we can learn even from these few verses of Paul; many layers of understanding when the Holy Ghost leads you. However, for the purpose of focusing on reincarnation, I will not go into much of what else is being revealed here. Look at verse 21, and the words “bondage of corruption”. Paul is speaking of physical death which we are in bondage to. Our spirit never can die, so what is Paul talking about? Our spirit is housed in a physical body while the body of flesh lives, and as such is in bondage to that body of flesh…but this is for a very short time because the flesh body dies. Since EVERY flesh body dies anyway REGARDLESS of whether or not a person accepts Christ, why is Paul bothering to even talk about physical death? Bondage to corruption (or death) is a concept beyond a mere single body of flesh…since the flesh is temporary. Bondage to death entails an ongoing subjection to corruption even though the spirit itself is not corruptible (even the spirit who becomes a son of perdition is not totally destroyed; rather they are reorganized and start the process all over again. This is a subject which has its own separate discussion to be considered).

1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV)
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

A body that decays (death) cannot inherit a body that does not die. The spirit is separate from a body of flesh. So what is the sting of death since all flesh bodies die? I offer that it is this: the spirit does not have to keep entering bodies that die once we become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.

Romans 8:17 (KJV)
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

See how it is that we MUST SUFFER with Christ so that we can be glorified together! It is more than accepting Christ; He has shown us the path and has prepared the way for us to end the cycle of flesh bodies which must die. But in order to accomplish this takes more than accepting Christ; it means we must suffer "with Christ" (experience pain jointly or of the same kind—source: Strong’s Greek Dictionary). Once our spirit evolves to where we receive a "glorified" body, we no longer receive corruptible flesh bodies.

Galatians 6:8 (KJV)
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


So, if we sow to the Spirit we will reap everlasting life as opposed to reaping corruption. In other words, a spirit can reap a corruptible body of flesh even though a flesh body dies only once!! The big deal Paul is talking about is that we do not keep reaping corruption if we sow to the Spirit. We do not keep reaping a physical body once our spirit is completely awakened; once we have taken the path Jesus took and follow the way He provided. That is when our spirit is freed from corruptible bodies which die; thus “death” no longer has its sting.

Now to share some teachings which John gave us.

John 6:63 (KJV) (this is Jesus speaking)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

and

John 12:25 (KJV) (again, this is Jesus speaking)
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

I would remind the reader that you keep in mind a body of flesh dies only once, and a spirit cannot die. Now take into consideration that all spirits are resurrected; no matter what the spirit did while in its corruptible body of flesh. Are they resurrected into a body? Or does a spirit get resurrected only as a spirit? Jesus was Resurrected WITH a body. I would offer that we also are resurrected with a body. Whether it is “glorified” like Jesus' body depends on how our spirits did in the body of flesh we just experienced our most recent incarnation in. To follow along in this thought process, a resurrected spirit in a body can still be thrown into the lake of fire if it is not a glorified body. Yet the previous body had already died once, right? So how can a spirit receive a dead body to be resurrected into in order to then be thrown into the lake of fire? The spirit is resurrected into a new and different body before being thrown into the lake of fire!! Isn’t this already speaking of more than one physical body per spirit since a physical body can only die once? In this alone we see that the resurrected spirit which does not return to God’s presence receives a new flesh body. Right here we can see at least one reincarnation of the spirit because his other flesh body has returned to dust; the flesh body only dies once.

Now, after all of the above has been shared, I would offer that what is being taught is that our spirit will continue to receive bodies of flesh which can only die once. And as each physical body dies, we are judged as to whether or not we get thrown back into the lake of fire in a new physical body. We go through this process until our spirit is fully awakened and it no longer needs to experience and suffer the sting of death. Once the judgment of our spirit’s time in a physical body results in being heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, then we “go no more out”. That is when, upon resurrection, we receive a glorified body. I would also offer that when the Bible talks of more than one resurrection, this too is a layered teaching. How many resurrections each spirit experiences is up to that spirit.

Revelation 3:12 (KJV)
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Otherwise, our spirit will not be allowed to enter the New Jerusalem. We will continue to be given bodies which spend their time in the lake of fire (which is another definition of being in a physical world separated from God) until such time as we have completely aligned our will with God’s will; i.e., our spirit has completely awakened because we have “overcometh”. This also speaks of how we are actually currently living in the lake of fire on our earth. The earth binds our body of flesh to it; but the spirit realm of the earth also binds our spirits between incarnations...but that also is another discussion.

The “way” leads us to incorruption. The “way” which Christ provided is the leading of our spirit to the end of being in bondage to corruptible bodies; thus taking away the sting of “death”. Judgment takes place after the death of each body of flesh; i.e., one death and one judgment (of our actions and progress or digression while in that particular flesh body). The spirit returns to a new body of flesh which is corruptible, and another judgment, until our spirit is no longer subject to that process by our overcoming the physical world (a.k.a. learning to be in alignment with God’s will; a.k.a. having our spirit be re-born; a.k.a. being able to return to Father’s presence, a.k.a. become One with Father, etc.).

If we have not completed this overcoming by the time our earth experiences its renewal/rebirth (the “age” of our world, if you will), we will still be thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire exists eternally for the purpose of providing a place where our spirit experiences the regeneration of our spirit to complete spiritual rebirth. Therefore, if necessary, once our world as we know it is reborn, we will enter into another world’s physical age which exists in the lake of fire. This process will continue until we have overcome; become One with Father again. This is one of the purposes of worlds without end.

Blessings,

Jean

[_Tobin]

Jo,

Death is a forced separation. The second death is the separation between us and God. Christ removed this barrier through the atonement. It is literally an at-one-ment with God.

[_jo1952]

Jo,

Death is a forced separation. The second death is the separation between us and God. Christ removed this barrier through the atonement. It is literally an at-one-ment with God.

Hi Tobin!

A body of flesh can only experience physical death once. When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit it resulted in them being cast out of the Garden of Eden at which time their bodies went through a change which would cause both death of the flesh (mortality) as well as separation from God (spiritual death which is not the same as death of the spirit because spirit cannot die; our spirit is immortal). As such there are two types of death. One death, the death of the flesh, cannot be recovered from. That is the "death" which is cast into the lake of fire. Being cast out of the Garden literally cast Adam and Eve into the lake of fire. It is in the lake of fire where, if we allow it, our spirit experiences baptism by fire. That baptism takes place in the lake of fire; i.e., our world, a.k.a. earth a.k.a., the Telestial Kingdom which is the Kingdom of Heaven where God cannot go (thus, separation from God). So, separation from God happens when our spirit is sent to the earth; that is known as "spiritual" death, though it does not kill our immortal spirit. The second spiritual death is representative of being cast back into the lake of fire; still being separated from God after we are resurrected and judged. We experience a judgment through each cycle. We pretty much receive a judgment immediately after the death of our physical body inasmuch as at that time we are assigned where our spirit will wait for resurrection.

The second death is allegorical for the unknown number of times it takes before each spirit is completely baptized by fire during separation from God. "Death" is a title of the condition of mortality. Death is cast into the lake of fire BEFORE the final judgment our earth goes through which takes place when the earth is renewed. AFTER that particular judgment, the resurrected spirits who are not in the Book of Life are cast back into the lake of fire where "Death" is waiting to continue the process of ending physical life a.k.a. mortality. They are the ones who are sent back into the Telestial Kingdom of another world where Father cannot live. When these spirits were resurrected, they were not given glorified bodies. They will be born into a new body of flesh which will suffer physical death.

There are many different resurrections. As taught in LDS canon; if not in the first, then in the next; iIf not in the second, then in the next. In other words there are as many resurrections as necessary until we receive a glorified body. That is when we have At-One-Ment. Christ's sacrifice accomplished more than one thing. His purpose as the Messiah on the earth was multi-layered. He showed that only through complete alignment with Father's will is a person able to ascend back to Father in a glorified body. Have you ever wondered why, even though Jesus’ body of flesh suffered death, that His flesh body did not return to dust? Also, the “death” which Christ overcame was two-fold. One was mortality; but for US to obtain that gift we must, like Christ, be in total alignment with Father and receive a glorified body. The other is like unto the first; but it is spiritual in that our spirit is able to return to Father’s presence in a glorified body….a body which is no longer corruptible. Do not forget that the earth is known as the Telestial Kingdom and we are separated from Father while we are in it. The Telestial Kingdom will continue to exist after this earth goes through its baptism of fire and is renewed. And there will be people assigned to that heaven who will have bodies of flesh. That will not change just because the earth is renewed/reborn. The condition of mortality (death) exists NOW in the Telestial kingdom. It will also exist in the next Telestial kingdom because the Telestial kingdom IS the lake of fire and that is where bodies of flesh die. And a physical body only dies once.

What exactly is it that Christ saves us from? What IS sin? He saves us from the continuation of spiritual death; i.e., being separated from God, and has shown us how to obtain that gift by being in alignment with Father’s will. Also, He saves us from corruption (mortality). But if we only EVER receive just one body of flesh which was going to die anyway then what was the big deal of His saving us from corruption since we still suffer corruption? The big deal is that He has put an end to the cycle of corruption IF we follow the path and the way He has taught us!! We DO STILL suffer death in the flesh even though Christ has already overcome physical death BECAUSE we are still in the lake of fire where “death” still is (the Telestial kingdom). AND death is cast (back) into the lake of fire when the earth is reborn. Therefore, the condition of death…both corruption of the flesh body, as well as spiritual separation from God still exists in the Telestial Kingdom of whatever physical world is used as the beginning of another world’s cycle and allotment of existence within “time”. It is an eternal round within endless eternities.

Here is something Heber C. Kimball spoke about in 1852 where he first was talking about the material that the newly announced SLC Temple would be constructed of, which you may find interesting:

"Upon the same principle, suppose I have a lump of
clay which I put upon my wheel, out of which clay I
want to make a jug; I have to turn it into as many as
50 or 100 shapes before I get it into a jug. How many
shapes do you suppose you are put into before you
become Saints, or before you become perfect and
sanctified to enter into the celestial glory of God?
You have got to be like that clay in the hands of the
potter. Do you not know that the Lord directed the
Prophet anciently, to go down to the potter's house
to see a miracle on the wheel? Suppose the Potter
takes a lump of clay, and putting it on the wheel,
goes to work to form it into a vessel, and works it
out this way, and that way, and the other way, but
the clay is refractory and snappish; he still [tries]
it, but it will break, and snap, and snarl, and thus
the potter will work it and work it until he is
satisfied he cannot bring it into the shape he wants,
and it mars upon the wheel; he takes his tool, then,
and cuts it off the wheel, and throws it into the
mill to be ground over again, until it becomes
passive, (don't you think you will go to hell if you
are not passive?) and after it is ground there so
many days, and it becomes passive, he takes the same
lump, and makes of it a vessel unto honor. Now do you
see into that, brethren? I know the potters can. I
tell you, brethren, if you are not passive you will
have to go into that mill, and perhaps have to grind
there one thousand years, and then the Gospel will be
offered to you again, and then if you will not accept
of it, and become passive, you will have to go into
the mill again, and thus you will have offers of
salvation from time to time, until all the human
family, will, except the sons of perdition, are
redeemed. The spirits of men will have the Gospel as
we do, and they are to be judged according to men in
the flesh. Let us be passive, and take a course that
will be perfectly submissive."
-- JofD, V.1, pp.160-161

Blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

Here is one of the other posts I mentioned I would re-post to this thread:

Nightlion wrote:
Care to site a couple of scriptural hints about it? Forget the Christian Fathers and the Kabbalah.

Hi Nightlion!

When we are taught that only "few there be that find it", I believe Jesus is speaking of our current incarnation; In other words, most of us need to go through more incarnations until we are among the "few there be that find it" within that particular incarnation. It is only those who are completely born of the Spirit who will find it (“it” being Exaltation).

Where we are taught that our sins have been forgiven us; but then are also taught that those who live by the sword will die by the sword, or with what judgment we mete the same is meted unto us, these teachings at first appear to be in conflict. Additionally we are taught that Mercy cannot rob Justice. Through the process of reincarnation, these words become Truth because if we lived by the sword in one life and did not die by the sword in that same life, our spirit will enter another body in order that Justice will be served; yet, our sins are still forgiven us (Mercy). In fact, our spirit can then experience both Justice and Mercy, and learn what it needs to in order to progress spiritually.

Now to some specifics: there is John the Baptist. He said he wasn’t Elijah; Jesus said that John was Elijah. How can this be? I believe both were telling the Truth. Jesus knows All Truth. I believe Jesus was teaching a spiritual truth. He would have known that the same spirit that was in Elijah’s body was the same spirit that was now occupying John the Baptist’s body. It was the spirit inside of John’s body that needed to be in a physical body who would not only fulfill the prophecy about the voice crying in the wilderness; but also which went through the experience of dying by the sword in order for Justice to be served.

How much of this did John the Baptist understand? As you will see, it does not matter; because either way, John’s answer would have been true from the standpoint that John’s body was NOT the body of Elijah. Therefore, in the physical meaning, John was NOT Elijah. If the veil HAD been removed from John’s mind, he STILL was not Elijah. A spirit is its own entity. As such, our spirit will have its own name; regardless of what physical body it occupies or the name it is assigned in the flesh. Perhaps this is why Jesus gives new names to individuals throughout the Bible. I think that some names are representative of “titles”. Perhaps the new name is the name of the spirit which was always known by God by that name. This could explain what Joseph Smith was told by the Lord in D&C 130:11.

Now, we know that John the Baptist died by having his head cut off. Let’s remember that Jesus taught that he who lives by the sword will die by the sword; with what judgment we mete, the same will be meted to us; etc. So, look at 1Kings 18:40 where Elijah slew 450 Prophets of Baal. In other words, Elijah lived by the sword, but in that incarnation, he did not die by the sword; in fact, he did not die in that incarnation. He was taken to Heaven in a chariot.

Now let’s look at David:

2 Samuel 12:9-14 (KJV) (added comments are mine)

9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

11 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. (The Lord is speaking about David’s spirit; as eventually, David does die physically.)

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die . (The Lord is speaking about the child’s physical life; not his spirit’s life.)

This story about David also teaches about how Mercy cannot rob Justice. And certainly, I do not believe for one second that God would have taken away the free agency of that child to have the opportunity at some point to believe in God. While Justice was served (as well as the Law of Moses; i.e., and eye for an eye); through reincarnation, the spirit of that child will still have the opportunity to choose to believe in God. Thus Mercy will still be offered to that child.

The following indicates that Jesus’ disciples believed in reincarnation. And Jesus’ response does not correct them for having that belief:

John 9:1-3 (KJV)

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

So, the man had not previously committed any sin which caused for him to be born blind. Nor was his blindness punishment for anything his parents did, so that he would be born blind. Rather, he was born blind so that Jesus could restore his sight as an opportunity for Jesus to perform this great miracle.

The following is an example of how reincarnation makes it possible for debt to be carried from one life to another.

Luke 13:1-5 (KJV)

1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Peter believed in reincarnation. Here he explains that he will endeavor (he wants to be the one) to continue to keep the members in remembrance after his decease.

2 Peter 1:12-15 (KJV)

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

The Book of Revelation also talks about reincarnation:

Revelation 3:12 (KJV)

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

I have found more, and keep on finding more; but I don't always remember to add them to my list.

Meanwhile, reincarnation explains so much of what took place in the Old Testament which makes mankind think that the God of the Old Testament is a different God than the God of the New Testament. Much of mankind sees the God of the Old Testament as some type of monster. In reality, the process of multiple incarnations allows all of mankind the same opportunities. No one winds up with special or extended or more opportunities than those of the next man. Remember that God is not a respecter of persons.

Additionally, I would like to offer something, if you will receive it, about Elisha. Before Elijah was taken to Heaven, Elisha desired to have a double portion of Elijah’s spirit upon him. I believe Elisha meant this both literally and allegorically. Inasmuch as Elisha DID see Elijah taken to Heaven, he did receive a double portion of Elijah’s spirit upon him. (by the way, I am also sharing some of the mystery of Christ’s seven spirits…which is not something only Christ has...) Now we need to add to this and remember what Jesus had to say about John the Baptist being Elijah. We also need to remember what Jesus had to say about John the Baptist being the greatest Prophet save Jesus Himself. Thus, I offer to you that Jesus’ spirit was in the body of Elisha. However, Jesus was not manifested as the Messiah in that incarnation. As such, Jesus’ spirit always had the superior role to the spirit of Elijah/John the Baptist in this world. Jesus was chosen as the Savior of our world before the foundation of our world. Once Jesus came in the flesh as the Messiah, He was Christed at His baptism; at which time He was embodied by the Father.

Blessings,

jo

[_Tobin]

Jo,

I disagree. I believe Satan and the 1/3 of the host of heaven that rebelled suffered a spiritual death when they separated from God. I quite literally believe this is a death as well. There are two deaths that we experience, one is the separation from our physical bodies and the other is the separation from God and our spiritual senses.

[_jo1952]

Jo,

I disagree. I believe Satan and the 1/3 of the host of heaven that rebelled suffered a spiritual death when they separated from God. I quite literally believe this is a death as well. There are two deaths that we experience, one is the separation from our physical bodies and the other is the separation from God and our spiritual senses.

Hi Tobin:

While in a flesh body, there is a veil placed over our memory. We are not aware of our separation from God at first. We are not even aware that we are spiritual beings. When we accept Christ by being drawn to His Light we become aware that there is also Light within us. If we take the steps to develop a relationship with God, our spirit continues to awaken and the veil will become thinner as we grow closer to God and have more parts of Truth revealed to us. The rebirth of our spirit is how we realize that we were spiritually dead; even though in reality our spirit never died. It just died to the knowledge of God. If we were to then stray or fall away, or at some point experience the feeling that God has parted from us, we can suffer tremendously. I am reminded of Christ and how, in His last moments of life in His body of flesh, He cried out "why hast thou forsaken me"? A truly devastating feeling of hopelessness to believe in God and feel that He no longer loves you;; even though this a incorrect perception.

I believe the first time we are born into a physical body that this is the first spiritual "death". That physical body is born into corruption and will eventually die, leaving our spirit without a physical body to dwell in. The body can only die once. Our spirits, however, can "die" inside of many incarnations as soon as it enters another physical body, and the veil once more separates us from our memory of God wherein we are thus spiritually dead. God's purpose is to bring about the eternal life of ALL mankind. I believe God's purposes will be accomplished.

Satan and the 1/3 of the host of heaven, however, do not have flesh bodies. They are spirit and are well aware that they have been cast out of Father's presence. But they are not dead. Since they are spirit, they have spiritual senses. I do not believe any veil has been placed over their spiritual memories. I think the veil only accompanies a physical body. It must be worse for Satan and his 1/3 to know God exists and that they cannot be in Father's presence.

Blessings,

jo

[_sleepyhead]

Hello,

Nightlion wrote:>>>Care to site a couple of scriptural hints about it? Forget the Christian Fathers and the Kabbalah.<<<

I also believe in reincarnation. I created a two debates in another forum presenting biblical support for reincarnation (some prior lives of Jesus). I'' copy and paste them here.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=14390
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=14327

Hello,

This debate assumes that the Old Testament, particularly the book of Genesis is authoritative in some way.

The topic I would like to debate is whether or not the entity who became the Christ appeared on the earth previously as Joseph the son of Isaac. I will take the affirmative view.

Joseph had two dreams which I will include below:

Dream 1

GEN 37:6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I
have dreamed:
GEN 37:7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my
sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood
round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
GEN 37:8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over
us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him
yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

I'm sure most of you would agree that according to the account given in the rest of the book of Genesis that this dream was fulfilled.

Dream 2

GEN 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren,
and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun
and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
GEN 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his
father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou
hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to
bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Joseph's mother had died giving birth to Benjamin. There is also no record of Jacob bowing to Joseph, in fact when he goes to Egypt Pharoah bows to him. Also notice the shuttle difference between the 1st dream where the brothers sheaf bowed to his sheaf, while in the 2nd dream they bowed to him.

It's my claim that Jacob never bowed to Joseph but rather that this dream is a prophecy that the entity that was Joseph would become the Christ.
_________________
May all your naps be joyous occasions.


This debate assumes that the Old Testament, particularly the book of Zechariah is authoritative in some way.

The topic I would like to debate is whether or not the entity who became the Christ appeared on the earth previously as Joshua the high priest. I will take the affirmative view.

I interpret the below verses to indicate that the book of Zechariah teaches that Joshus was to become the messiah. How do others interpret the below passages?

ZECH 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the
angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
ZECH 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O
Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not
this a brand plucked out of the fire?
ZECH 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood
before the angel.
ZECH 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before
him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he
said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will
clothe thee with change of raiment.
ZECH 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they
set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the
angel of the LORD stood by.
ZECH 3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
ZECH 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways,
and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house,
and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk
among these that stand by.
ZECH 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows
that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will
bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

ZECH 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them
upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
ZECH 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of
hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he
shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the
LORD:

[_Drifting]

Why does reincarnation keep coming up?

[_SteelHead]

Cuz some folk is nucking futz?

[_jo1952]

Hello,

Nightlion wrote:>>>Care to site a couple of scriptural hints about it? Forget the Christian Fathers and the Kabbalah.<<<

I also believe in reincarnation. I created a two debates in another forum presenting biblical support for reincarnation (some prior lives of Jesus). I'' copy and paste them here.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=14390
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=14327

Hello,

This debate assumes that the Old Testament, particularly the book of Genesis is authoritative in some way.

The topic I would like to debate is whether or not the entity who became the Christ appeared on the earth previously as Joseph the son of Isaac. I will take the affirmative view.

Joseph had two dreams which I will include below:

Dream 1

GEN 37:6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I
have dreamed:
GEN 37:7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my
sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood
round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
GEN 37:8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over
us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him
yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

I'm sure most of you would agree that according to the account given in the rest of the book of Genesis that this dream was fulfilled.

Dream 2

GEN 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren,
and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun
and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
GEN 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his
father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou
hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to
bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Joseph's mother had died giving birth to Benjamin. There is also no record of Jacob bowing to Joseph, in fact when he goes to Egypt Pharoah bows to him. Also notice the shuttle difference between the 1st dream where the brothers sheaf bowed to his sheaf, while in the 2nd dream they bowed to him.

It's my claim that Jacob never bowed to Joseph but rather that this dream is a prophecy that the entity that was Joseph would become the Christ.
_________________
May all your naps be joyous occasions.

Hello Sleepyhead!

I had not considered this before. At the very least I always saw Joseph as a type for Christ. I have some pondering to do here. Certainly, it is possible that the spirit that was in the body of Jesus of Nazereth (and, I believe was also the same spirit that was in the body of Elisha), could have been in other bodies as well. The only immediate problem I had was the story of Jacob wrestling with God; which took place while Joseph was alive. However, upon further study of Jacob's wrestling with God, I discovered in Gen 48:16

Genesis 48:16 (KJV)

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

This seems to be speaking of Jacob's wrestling match which took place in Genesis 32. Therefore, if Jacob was actually wrestling with an Angel of God, rather than with God Himself (though Jacob could easily have seen this match as a sign from God which would give way to the explanation he gave of the wrestling right after the fighting took place), then if the spirit in Joseph was the same spirit in Jesus, this is no longer problematic.

This debate assumes that the Old Testament, particularly the book of Zechariah is authoritative in some way.

The topic I would like to debate is whether or not the entity who became the Christ appeared on the earth previously as Joshua the high priest. I will take the affirmative view.

I interpret the below verses to indicate that the book of Zechariah teaches that Joshus was to become the messiah. How do others interpret the below passages?

ZECH 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the
angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
ZECH 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O
Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not
this a brand plucked out of the fire?
ZECH 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood
before the angel.
ZECH 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before
him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he
said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will
clothe thee with change of raiment.
ZECH 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they
set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the
angel of the LORD stood by.
ZECH 3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
ZECH 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways,
and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house,
and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk
among these that stand by.
ZECH 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows
that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will
bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

ZECH 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them
upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
ZECH 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of
hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he
shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the
LORD:

This also is interesting and warrants further consideration and pondering, etc.

I have been pondering many other things about reincarnation. Joseph Smith taught that spirit is made of matter. He is not the only person who believed this. I have been wondering if the opposite is also true; i.e., is matter made of spirit? For all parts of creation to obey God's word, are they made of spirit in order for them to be able to move about under His command? Not in the state of finer matter which would make the spirit of man; but a denser, more compact form of spirit?

I am reminded of passages such as this one:

Matthew 3:9 (KJV)

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Or this one:

Luke 19:40 (KJV)

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

If everything existed first in the spiritual realm, would not all things then be of a spiritual or spirit nature? I realize that this may take some time for people to get their heads wrapped around. We have been doing something throughout eternity; not just sitting around and waiting to exist within the time bubbles of physical worlds. What if our spirits are first given place in the physical created realms in lower more condensed forms. And then we advance to other densities - stilll our own spirit; but not yet conscious of this in physical realms. When we finally progress enough to receive a human body which is the image of how God manifests Himself, and we are then able to be conscious of experiencing the difference between Good and evil (which is a quality God possesses), this could also be another layer of meaning God had in mind which is even more significant when He said:

Genesis 3:22 (KJV)

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Thank you so much for sharing, Sleepyhead!

Blessings,

jo