Ordinances Can't be Changed?

[_Investigator]

Did Joseph really say this (and what does it mean)?

"Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles." (DHC 5:423, June 11, 1843), are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles." (DHC 5:423, June 11, 1843)

What's meant by "Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men"?

Is this talking only about Temple ordinances (like the endowment), or is it talking about things like the Lord's supper?

Is it possible to know whether the endowment ceremony has been changed, or must we choose to believe either those who say it has (presumably anti's), or those who say it hasn't (presumably tbm's)?

If it's talking about more than Temple ordinances (including things like the Lord's supper), shouldn't we still be using wine in the sacrament?

I'm not trying to attack the LDS church here, I'm trying to understand how you understand this recorded teaching of your founding prophet (if it is genuine.)

Please reply.

Thank you.

[_subgenius]

Did Joseph really say this (and what does it mean)?

"Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles." (DHC 5:423, June 11, 1843), are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles." (DHC 5:423, June 11, 1843)

What's meant by "Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men"?

Is this talking only about Temple ordinances (like the endowment), or is it talking about things like the Lord's supper?

Is it possible to know whether the endowment ceremony has been changed, or must we choose to believe either those who say it has (presumably anti's), or those who say it hasn't (presumably tbm's)?

If it's talking about more than Temple ordinances (including things like the Lord's supper), shouldn't we still be using wine in the sacrament?

I'm not trying to attack the LDS church here, I'm trying to understand how you understand this recorded teaching of your founding prophet (if it is genuine.)

Please reply.

Thank you.

I believe you need to distinguish between what is a "principle" in the ordinance and what is not.
For example, is using "wine" a principle or is drinking something the principle? Is red wine the principle or is it white wine?
If you can parse out those differences then perhaps your question here becomes enticing.

[_RockSlider]

I believe you need to distinguish between what is a "principle" in the ordinance and what is not.
For example, is using "wine" a principle or is drinking something the principle? Is red wine the principle or is it white wine?
If you can parse out those differences then perhaps your question here becomes enticing.

yes you best stick with the sacrament, as the Temple has modified many of the ordinances, and we are not talking principle/pratice/policy here, but actual ordinance changes.

[_jo1952]

Did Joseph really say this (and what does it mean)?

"Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles." (DHC 5:423, June 11, 1843), are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles." (DHC 5:423, June 11, 1843)

What's meant by "Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men"?

Is this talking only about Temple ordinances (like the endowment), or is it talking about things like the Lord's supper?

Is it possible to know whether the endowment ceremony has been changed, or must we choose to believe either those who say it has (presumably anti's), or those who say it hasn't (presumably tbm's)?

If it's talking about more than Temple ordinances (including things like the Lord's supper), shouldn't we still be using wine in the sacrament?

I'm not trying to attack the LDS church here, I'm trying to understand how you understand this recorded teaching of your founding prophet (if it is genuine.)

Please reply.

Thank you.

Hello Inquiringmind,

First, I feel the need to comment and try to find out who you are. You always pose such thought provoking questions. Yet rarely do I see you returning to respond to answers given to your questions. Your threads still take on a life of their own. I feel as though your purpose is precisely to get individuals to look at their beliefs in order to assist them in their personal journey. As such, I have wondered if you are an angel of light assigned by God to serve Him in the Internet world. Or, you are still a human one who is very advanced in your own personal journey; and you have chosen to serve God in this manner. Whoever you are, your name is most appropriate.

Now, to look at your OP. I believe there are at least two ways to look at this. The "ordinances" performed in the flesh are done to help the individual who is in a body of flesh be reminded of his personal commitment to serve God. As such, they provide a method which God uses to have His purposes accomplished for the individual who participates in the physical ordinances performed. They represent a covenant being made between the individual and God. They are a tool used in the physical world which allegorically represent Truths in the spiritual Kingdom of God.

It becomes more complicated to consider the true purpose of why these ordinances are performed for the dead. Now, inasmuch as I believe in reincarnation, the ordinances performed on the earth with the power and authority of the Priesthood keys of Heaven, binds the ordinances to the spirit of the individual who has physically died. The genealogy work done will inevitably result in ordinances being performed for the same spirit more than once - since the same spirit will occupy more than one physical body during their journey. Now, the ancient Apostles, I believe, also believed in reincarnation; yet they still performed baptisms for the dead. Obviously, there is still some mystery which surrounds "why". Perhaps it is to make sure that as many baptisms as possible could be performed, even it meant that some spirits would wind up being baptized more than once. However, the act of performing the baptisms indicated the individual performing them was indeed serving God and doing their part in the great work of spreading the Gospel. God will be able to sort out things out by having those who are on the earth during the Millenium serve Him in this matter.

The thing is, it is in physical bodies that the spirit is able to learn and progress until they evolve becoming unified with God again. So, ordinances play a role in this unification process. What is bound on the earth (physical), is bound in Heaven (spiritual).

Spiritually speaking, wherein the ordinances were instituted before the foundation of the world, represents part of the Plan of Salvation which God has been using eternally. The power of the Priesthood involves some things which are not clearly understood in the flesh, even though we can see evidence of the workings of the Priesthood. As such, the Priesthood has mystery surrounding it; but its powers can still be accessed regardless of whether we completely understand it.

Baptism by water serves not only as a sign that an individual is committing themselves to God, it is allegorical to the beginning of the process of being reborn in the spirit. In order to enjoy eternal life in the Kingdom of God (not to be confused with the levels of the various degrees of lesser Heavens where God does not reside), an individual spirit MUST be completely reborn and fully awakened, with its will in perfect alignment with God's will. This, in itself, is not an ordinance; but rather a spiritual reality....a principle of the Heavens which has co-existed with God throughout the eternities. Therefore, no spirit can experience unity with God without the unfolding of becoming one with God. It is the same for all spirits; regardless of the worldly church they hang their hat on.

Baptism by fire takes place on the earth, as the earth is part of the lake of fire. With the help of the Holy Ghost, the individual spirit is guided and led to All Truth which assists the spirit to be in complete alignment with God's will. Being in the lake of fire purges the spirit if the spirit allows the purging to take place. What the spirit desires and diligently seeks is what the spirit will find. Baptism by fire is painful and purifying; it is what is described in the Bible as suffering with Christ. It is the process which progresses our spirit through its awakening. It is not easy. It is not what mainstream Christianity thinks it is, wherein most believe that all is necessary is to accept Christ and the rest happens automatically. Accepting Christ is only the beginning.

Other ordinances, such as the Lord's Supper, are also tools which help us to free ourselves of sin and remind us of the promises we have made to God. The Endowment is considered a higher ordinance which also serves the same purpose....just at a higher level of understanding. When Joseph Smith spoke about what was not to be changed or altered, I believe he was speaking spiritually. Man does not have the ability to change or alter what God instituted before the foundation of our world. Man may use different words or actions which mimic what was instituted; but he cannot change what was instituted. God will know the intent; He is concerned about our spirit...not our body of flesh.

This is my current understanding of what has been revealed to me.

Blessings,

jo

[_ZelphtheGreat]

The baptismal prayer in the Book of Mormon and in the present day LDS church are not the same.

The blessing on the wine and blessing on the water are different. "Conspiring men"and "enemies of the Church" are no longer a problem and poisoned wine is not likely to happen so why not go back to the original method specified in 'scripture'?

Where are the revelations that tell LDS Leadership and members what the Temple Ceremonies are? Kirtland and Nauvoo, the two Temples actually erected when Joseph Smith was alive bear little resemblance to what goes on now. When was the last public dance in the Salt Lake Temple? The last public marriage ceremony in it as in Kirtland?

Maybe ordinances can't be changed but it appears they can be bent and outright ignored.