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Can't really tell what the religious thoughts were of those past Homo Sapiens, who made the Australian Aboriginal rock paintings from around 40,000 BCE or the Early European cave paintings from Lascaux around 18,000 BCE, but I feel confident they had religious thoughts.

Maybe they were even Mormon, although evidence of sacred undergarments and petrified Jell-O are missing. If they were, then the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers on the plains of the Serengeti in Missouri must have made for one very fertile crescent. We know that even Neanderthals buried their dead like we do and with their clannishness and territoriality they probably had their own Cleon Skousen analog.

One thing we do know for certain, is that our fellow primates outside of the Homo genus do not have any formal religious thoughts.

It seems obvious to me that religion comes as part of our ascendance on the evolutionary ladder.

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i can agree, i have always maintained that atheism is more akin to primate than man.

moksha wrote:Can't really tell what the religious thoughts were of those past Homo Sapiens, who made the Australian Aboriginal rock paintings from around 40,000 BCE or the Early European cave paintings from Lascaux around 18,000 BCE, but I feel confident they had religious thoughts.

Maybe they were even Mormon, although evidence of sacred undergarments and petrified Jell-O are missing. If they were, then the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers on the plains of the Serengeti in Missouri must have made for one very fertile crescent. We know that even Neanderthals buried their dead like we do and with their clannishness and territoriality they probably had their own Cleon Skousen analog.

One thing we do know for certain, is that our fellow primates outside of the Homo genus do not have any formal religious thoughts.

It seems obvious to me that religion comes as part of our ascendance on the evolutionary ladder.

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About 30 years ago I got to see a petrified sloth turd at the Sonoran Desert Museum in Tucson, Arizona...but no petrified jello; green or otherwise. I have wondered should they decide to analyze the turd, if they'll find any evidence of jello, or maybe even funeral potatoes.

Blessings,

jo

subgenius wrote:i can agree, i have always maintained that atheism is more akin to primate than man.

Or perhaps the Homo Erectus line not only were confirmed atheists, but also supported same sex marriage. I could see Neanderthals going either way.

Seriously, religious thought seems to be a precursor to civilization.

moksha wrote: I could see Neanderthals going either way.

Peace,
Ceeboo

moksha wrote:

subgenius wrote:i can agree, i have always maintained that atheism is more akin to primate than man.

Or perhaps the Homo Erectus line not only were confirmed atheists, but also supported same sex marriage. I could see Neanderthals going either way.

Seriously, religious thought seems to be a precursor to civilization.

Obviously, any species called Homo Erectus would support same sex marriage.

Seriously, I would have to separate the words 'religious' and 'spiritual'. I do think that an interest in life after death comes earlier with a more advanced view of the world. Organized religion came about much later and had more to do with civil organization and control of society.

Quasimodo wrote:Organized religion came about much later and had more to do with civil organization and control of society.

So you think it only started when the shaman realized he could stay fed when tribesmen left a barbecued offering on the altar? I see it as when our ancestors gazed up at the stars on the Serengeti and told tales which they passed down to their grandchildren or held up their own child to those same stars and proclaimed him Cleon.

moksha wrote:

Quasimodo wrote:Organized religion came about much later and had more to do with civil organization and control of society.

So you think it only started when the shaman realized he could stay fed when tribesmen left a barbecued offering on the altar? I see it as when our ancestors gazed up at the stars on the Serengeti and told tales which they passed down to their grandchildren or held up their own child to those same stars and proclaimed him Cleon.

Initially, the organized religion was a strong instrument to stress the superiority of "our tribe" vs. "others around". It was succesful, and - even as an atheist - I should say it was necessary to build something more than a tribe, to build a society.

The shaman? Side effect.
See this omnibus in London, 1902:
[#img] http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... iaduct.png[/img]
Ask the sparrows about usefulness of horse-drawn vehicles...

moksha wrote:

Quasimodo wrote:Organized religion came about much later and had more to do with civil organization and control of society.

So you think it only started when the shaman realized he could stay fed when tribesmen left a barbecued offering on the altar?

Not at all an unreasonable conjecture! Think about it. Other than the priests or shamans, who else really benefitted from ritual animal sacrifice? It relieved them of the necessity of having to do any manual labor to secure enough food for themselves and their families. Surely one could not reasonably think that God somehow needed or benefitted from the practice, could one? Can one really make a reasonable case for concluding that those priests and shamans who required burnt offerings were anything more than parasites on society who capitalized on the gullibility of their fellow men by filling them with superstitious fears of divine wrath for those who doubted their claims of divine authority?

ludwigm wrote:Initially, the organized religion was a strong instrument to stress the superiority of "our tribe" vs. "others around". It was succesful, and - even as an atheist - I should say it was necessary to build something more than a tribe, to build a society.

I have to admit there is something to be said for that view as well.