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Do apologists vary their requirements for evidence?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:14 am
by _Bazooka
Daniel Peterson has posted an article by Brian Hales which, in short, suggests that Joseph Smiths practice of plural marriage can't have been bad because the women didn't complain after he was dead.

However, Dr. Hales concludes, “none of Joseph Smith’s plural wives ever accused him of abuse or deception, including the seven who did not gather to Utah with the main body of the Church. Decades after their feelings had matured and their youthful perspectives were expanded by additional experiences in subsequent marriages, it appears that none of them claimed they were victimized or beguiled by the Prophet. None came forth to write an exposé indicating he was a seducing impostor or claim that polygamy was a sham or a cover-up for illicit sexual relations. Even mild criticisms seem to be absent in the historical accounts and reminiscences of the Prophet’s plural wives. It seems that if any of Smith’s polygamous wives eventually decided that he had debauched them, their later scorn might have motivated them to expose him through the press. Certainly, numerous publishers would have been eager to print their allegations.”

Source "Sic Et Non"

So, because there is no evidence that Joseph was a bad man, we can state Joseph was not a bad man (as his behaviour relates to the opposite sex).

And yet, in responding to the lack of available evidence in support of The Book of Mormon, Mike Ash (whatever happened to him?) of FAIR concludes:

Those who make claims that there is no archaeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon are right in one respect–we don’t know where the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon are located. Such information may yet be discovered, but not discovering it is just as likely given the lack of cultural continuity and toponyms, as well as the epigraphic and iconographic uncertainties. To dismiss the Book of Mormon on archaeological grounds is short-sighted, as continuing discoveries provide ever more evidence that is consistent with the book. Archaeology is not a dead science, and it continues to make new inroads that are applicable to Book of Mormon studies.

Source: FAIRlds.org


So which is it?
Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence
or
Absence of evidence IS NOT evidence of absence


-------------------------------------------------------------

There is an interesting little commentary back and forth on Sic Et Non about this article between Dan and a respondent which highlights the inconsistency in Daniel's/Apologetics proof standards:

Elizabeth <surname removed by Bazooka> says:
February 18, 2013 at 1:10 pm
Interesting thoughts, Dan! I will definitely read the article.
Do you think, though, that even if these women had felt “wronged” by the prophet, they might have kept silent so they didn’t embarrass themselves?

Reply
danpeterson says:
February 18, 2013 at 1:39 pm
Maybe. But there’s no apparent evidence for that.


Emphasis mine

Re: Do apologists vary their requirements for evidence?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:46 pm
by _Kittens_and_Jesus
Bazooka wrote:

So which is it?
Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence
or
Absence of evidence IS NOT evidence of absence




The answer is clear. Whichever serves the apologists at the moment.

Apologetics are nothing more than mental gymnastics.

Re: Do apologists vary their requirements for evidence?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:59 pm
by _subgenius
your examples are supporting a false dichotomy.
Both examples illustrate a consistent attitude towards evidence:

1. Just because you have no evidence to the contrary, You can not dismiss the notion that Joseph Smith was a good man
2. Just because you have no evidence to the contrary, You can not dismiss the notion that the Book of Mormon is true

Re: Do apologists vary their requirements for evidence?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:50 pm
by _SteelHead
Does the converse also apply?

Just because of ample evidence to the contrary, you can not prove that Joseph Smith was a good man.
Just because of ample evidence to the contrary, you can not prove that the Book of Mormon is true.

Re: Do apologists vary their requirements for evidence?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:40 pm
by _subgenius
SteelHead wrote:Does the converse also apply?

Just because of ample evidence to the contrary, you can not prove that Joseph Smith was a good man.
Just because of ample evidence to the contrary, you can not prove that the Book of Mormon is true.

by Bazooka's measure, yes

Re: Do apologists vary their requirements for evidence?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:25 am
by _Bazooka
subgenius wrote:
SteelHead wrote:Does the converse also apply?

Just because of ample evidence to the contrary, you can not prove that Joseph Smith was a good man.
Just because of ample evidence to the contrary, you can not prove that the Book of Mormon is true.

by Bazooka's measure, yes


It's not my measure.

Daniel is saying you cannot believe something (in this case that Joseph Smith used deception or coercion to attract many wives who were young, old and even already married) if there is no evidence.
On the other hand apologetics (Daniel included) is saying that you can believe in the historicity of The Book of Mormon even though there is no evidence.

Inconsistent standards by anyone's measure.

Re: Do apologists vary their requirements for evidence?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:10 pm
by _subgenius
Bazooka wrote:It's not my measure.

Daniel is saying you cannot believe something (in this case that Joseph Smith used deception or coercion to attract many wives who were young, old and even already married) if there is no evidence.
On the other hand apologetics (Daniel included) is saying that you can believe in the historicity of The Book of Mormon even though there is no evidence.

Inconsistent standards by anyone's measure.

neither of your quotes in the OP say what you are saying.

the standard is still consistent as noted above both by myself and by Steelhead.
you have, still, not provided an actual measure for your accusation.

Re: Do apologists vary their requirements for evidence?

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:29 am
by _Bazooka
subgenius wrote:
Bazooka wrote:It's not my measure.

Daniel is saying you cannot believe something (in this case that Joseph Smith used deception or coercion to attract many wives who were young, old and even already married) if there is no evidence.
On the other hand apologetics (Daniel included) is saying that you can believe in the historicity of The Book of Mormon even though there is no evidence.

Inconsistent standards by anyone's measure.

neither of your quotes in the OP say what you are saying.


That's exactly what they say, but I understand why you would choose the denial route...

Re: Do apologists vary their requirements for evidence?

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:35 am
by _Bazooka
For [insult deleted] subgenius's benefit...

However, Dr. Hales concludes, “none of Joseph Smith’s plural wives ever accused him of abuse or deception, including the seven who did not gather to Utah with the main body of the Church. Decades after their feelings had matured and their youthful perspectives were expanded by additional experiences in subsequent marriages, it appears that none of them claimed they were victimized or beguiled by the Prophet. None came forth to write an exposé indicating he was a seducing impostor or claim that polygamy was a sham or a cover-up for illicit sexual relations. Even mild criticisms seem to be absent in the historical accounts and reminiscences of the Prophet’s plural wives. It seems that if any of Smith’s polygamous wives eventually decided that he had debauched them, their later scorn might have motivated them to expose him through the press. Certainly, numerous publishers would have been eager to print their allegations.”

Source "Sic Et Non"
The above quote says that absence of evidence of wives complaining = there was nothing to complain about.
Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence

Those who make claims that there is no archaeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon are right in one respect–we don’t know where the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon are located. Such information may yet be discovered, but not discovering it is just as likely given the lack of cultural continuity and toponyms, as well as the epigraphic and iconographic uncertainties. To dismiss the Book of Mormon on archaeological grounds is short-sighted, as continuing discoveries provide ever more evidence that is consistent with the book. Archaeology is not a dead science, and it continues to make new inroads that are applicable to Book of Mormon studies.

Source: FAIRlds.org
The above quote says that absence of evidence supporting the Book of Mormon does not mean there is no evidence supporting the Book of Mormon. Just that it hasn't come to light yet.
Absence of evidence IS NOT evidence of absence

Re: Do apologists vary their requirements for evidence?

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:27 pm
by _Bhodi
Bazooka wrote:So which is it?
Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence
or
Absence of evidence IS NOT evidence of absence


Amusingly enough you fail to see the same actions in your own argumentation.