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I've been considering the advice the missionaries have given me to pray, go to church and read the scriptures and then faith will follow. But it doesn't seem to be working. Is there any kind of mental processes that help you guys put doubt aside?

Tyresias wrote:I've been considering the advice the missionaries have given me to pray, go to church and read the scriptures and then faith will follow. But it doesn't seem to be working. Is there any kind of mental processes that help you guys put doubt aside?

No. Stick to what you know is true instead. I was a former Mormon and an atheist until I saw and experienced God myself. Barring that I would still be an atheist and not believe a word of Mormonism. Unless you have an experience like Joseph Smith (or others have had in the scriptures), there really is no good reason to believe they are anything but a fictional account (or worse). If you desire these kind of experiences, seek them. Otherwise as I said, there is no reason to believe they are true and I would recommend living a good life, being good to others, and holding to those things you know are correct.

Tobin wrote:

Tyresias wrote:I've been considering the advice the missionaries have given me to pray, go to church and read the scriptures and then faith will follow. But it doesn't seem to be working. Is there any kind of mental processes that help you guys put doubt aside?

No. Stick to what you know is true instead. I was a former Mormon and an atheist until I saw and experienced God myself. Barring that I would still be an atheist and not believe a word of Mormonism. Unless you have an experience like Joseph Smith (or others have had in the scriptures), there really is no good reason to believe they are anything but a fictional account (or worse). If you desire these kind of experiences, seek them. Otherwise as I said, there is no reason to believe they are true and I would recommend living a good life, being good to others, and holding to those things you know are correct.

Keep in mind tobin does not take his own advice. He admits what he thought was an entity did not say it was God, but made the assumption that it could only be God or satan. He never considered any other possibilities. This entity he thought he saw also never gave him any religious information, so he again makes huge assumptions that he had been a Mormon then the entity would know this and it means he should follow Mormonism, although he thinks the current LDS church is in apostasy. If he followed his own advice he would not believe any of Joseph's claims.

Tyresias wrote:I've been considering the advice the missionaries have given me to pray, go to church and read the scriptures and then faith will follow. But it doesn't seem to be working. Is there any kind of mental processes that help you guys put doubt aside?

You cannot force yourself to have faith or believe certain claims without having a great desire to believe them first. If you have a great desire to believe LDS claims then going to church, praying, reading scriptures and telling yourself it is true. This could help you to become a believer. Do you want to believe in it, or are you more interested in what is true?

Tyresias wrote:I've been considering the advice the missionaries have given me to pray, go to church and read the scriptures and then faith will follow. But it doesn't seem to be working. Is there any kind of mental processes that help you guys put doubt aside?

Tyresias,

Welcome to the board.

Any time you have to for this board would be better spent down in the Terrestrial Forum, where you can read about what is really going on rather than have your time wasted by folks like Tobin, who is well known around here as one of a the more prolific time wasters.

(Not to worry. Tobin claims to have me on ignore, so if he is telling the truth, he will never see this.)

In any case, as you will soon figure out for yourself, Mormonism is a joke and you can appreciate that fact in much less time in the Terrestrial Forum, or even over on http://www.postmormon.org.

Don't worry about what the missionaries say. If you are not feeling what they say you should feel, it probably means that you know more about things than they do.

Tyresias wrote:I've been considering the advice the missionaries have given me to pray, go to church and read the scriptures and then faith will follow. But it doesn't seem to be working. Is there any kind of mental processes that help you guys put doubt aside?

Well many of us here at this board have put aside a faith because we maintained our doubt. There is an ongoing discussion about the results.

Are you looking to develop faith and knowledge or just your faith?

Tyresias wrote:I've been considering the advice the missionaries have given me to pray, go to church and read the scriptures and then faith will follow. But it doesn't seem to be working. Is there any kind of mental processes that help you guys put doubt aside?

Your question says it all, "
Is there any degree of self-persuasion involved in faith?"

My mother tried to coax me back to her beliefs, to faith, to activity. She never comprehended that my turning away from being a TBM was a decision base on study and contemplation, that I had, from the start, fully relied on the standards of prayer, guidance from leaders and study of scriptures. She thought I had merely gone into a slump in faith that could be remedied if I just put some effort into it.

She had my name on prayer lists in the temple, many, many times. She repeated, like a mantra, that all I needed to do was ask in humility and faith, through prayer, and God would guide me to the truth.

I had, for a major part of my life, followed such advice, and was satisfied with the results. I served faithfully in my appointments, served well on my mission, married in the temple and did many services for fellow members and society. It wasn't faith or conviction that lacked.

But once I made the decision to no longer be active or serve in the church I no longer sought answers through prayer. I became convinced that prayer is simply talking oneself into a foregone conclusion. It is stacking the deck in favor of the answer one wants to receive.

The mere fact of asking the question defines the outcome. One might as well ask the question, "Am I fat?" If you need to ask the question, you already know the answer. (Yes, it feels good when someone answers in the negative, but the joy is shortlived.) The question then gets repeated. In regards to faith, the question gets repeated over and over until you convince yourself of the answer you want to hear.

Maybe the question should be changed. Do I really need a church based belief system to do good for my fellow man? Can I find contentment and joy in living without having my behaviors and beliefs defined by a religious sect?

Tobin wrote: I was a former Mormon and an atheist until I saw and experienced God myself. Barring that I would still be an atheist and not believe a word of Mormonism. Unless you have an experience like Joseph Smith (or others have had in the scriptures), there really is no good reason to believe they are anything but a fictional account (or worse). If you desire these kind of experiences, seek them. Otherwise as I said, there is no reason to believe they are true and I would recommend living a good life, being good to others, and holding to those things you know are correct.

Tobis: What kind of mental state where you in when you felt the spirit or when God reveal himself to you? Were you seeking a change in your life? Or were you perfectly happy in your atheistic state?



How can we tell the difference between a willed faith that we create out of desire and the "real" thing?

Themis wrote:You cannot force yourself to have faith or believe certain claims without having a great desire to believe them first. If you have a great desire to believe LDS claims then going to church, praying, reading scriptures and telling yourself it is true. This could help you to become a believer. Do you want to believe in it, or are you more interested in what is true?

Well, I do have a desire to understand how some people believe in a religion that seems obviously fabricated to most others. (For the record, I'm not singling out Mormonism here. The same could be said about a belief in Christ's resurrection, etc.)

I laughed heartily at your comment, Themis. But I have to ask you, how are you so sure you know what is true? Wont you be falling into the same trap of claiming certainty and authority in matters that are open to subjective interpretation?

I can't say for sure whether or not anyone knows the truth. So, no I am not interested in finding that which might not actually exist. I am more interested in understanding HOW people come to "know" the truth. In other words, what makes us so certain that our perceptions and interpretations are correct?

bcuzbcuz wrote:The mere fact of asking the question defines the outcome. One might as well ask the question, "Am I fat?" If you need to ask the question, you already know the answer. (Yes, it feels good when someone answers in the negative, but the joy is shortlived.) The question then gets repeated. In regards to faith, the question gets repeated over and over until you convince yourself of the answer you want to hear.

This is all really helpful, thanks. I have been reading an article on self-persuasion and they are talking about the same thing here.

Motivated hypothesis testing. The desired attitude [faith]
may be achieved when salient motivations inspire
people to form and test particular hypotheses (Kunda &
Oleson, 1995). For example, people who desire to see
themselves as introverted [or "a believer"] should be likely to test the
hypothesis that they are introverted [have a testimony]. As described by
Kunda and Oleson (1995), this motivated selection of
hypotheses is important because people tend to test
hypotheses by looking for evidence that supports them
(Klayman & Ha, 1987).

For example, people who have
been motivated to see themselves as introverted [having a testimony] are more
likely to recall their introverted behaviors [spiritual experience] and less likely
to recall their extroverted behaviors [doubtful experiences] than are people who
have been motivated to see themselves as [non-believers].
(Sanitioso, Kunda, & Fong, 1990).

Maio and Thomas use the example of introvert and extrovert but I think it works the same way with faith. Moroni's challenge of asking god "if this church is true" is setting up oneself for the desired answer. Either you get the answer that it's true, or you get no answer. But the possibility of getting a affirmative "no, it's not true" is completely impossible. This must be some kind of logical fallacy...

Thoughts?

Quoted: Maio and Thomas: The Epistemic-Teleologic Model of Deliberate Self-Persuasion Pers Soc Psychol Rev 2007 11: 46