The Concept of Death

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
_bcuzbcuz
_Emeritus
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:14 pm

The Concept of Death

Post by _bcuzbcuz »

We're all probably well acquainted with the Mormon concept of the afterlife; the idea of resurrection, judgement and reward or punishment. All of which is assigned to some point in the future, the fulness of time, or after the final great battle, the coming of Christ for the second time and all that.

But what is the Mormon concept of death? Is it a period of lying in the grave, or is there spiritual activity? Of course, I'd love to hear what scriptural proof anyone can provide to their claims, not just winging it from a verbal jaunt.

The Mormons who died in the last 180 years, what have they been doing during their time away from physical life? It seems to me that Mormonism puts a fair to middlin effort into describing the ultimate goal, but have little to describe the "in-between".

Judaism, Christianity, along with Greek and Roman philosophies they replaced, for the most part describe a heaven that will come after the final judgment. But Christianity then slips into a rather defuse description of a netherworld that quickly degrades into confusion with stuff about meeting St. Peter at the pearly gates, supposedly right after death....before the "calling forth from the graves". Judaism, at least in its older form, had very little to say about the realm of the dead. It postulated a lot more about getting everything in order while here in "real" life.

So what happens at death? Where do you see yourself going? Does that "existence" have real definition?
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
_Gunnar
_Emeritus
Posts: 6315
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:17 am

Re: The Concept of Death

Post by _Gunnar »

According to Mormon doctrine, when we die, we all go to the spirit world to await final judgment and resurrection, which, for most of us, will not occur until after the second coming of Christ and the millennium. Though disembodied, we will be fully aware and conscious and able to freely interact socially with our fellow spirits. The spirit world is divided into two sections: paradise, where all faithful Mormons will go, and spirit prison, where everyone else will go and be proselyted to by Mormon missionary spirits. Those who convert will be released from spirit prison and join the Mormon spirits in paradise, after proxy baptism work has been performed for them in Mormon temples by Mormons who have not yet died.

Many people are fond of imagining that previously deceased loved ones can look down(?) upon them and keep track of what they are doing and how they are fairing back in the mortal world. If this is true, it raises the question of where, exactly, is this supposed spirit world? Does it somehow keep pace with or orbit the earth as it moves through space? The earth orbits the sun at a velocity of more that 18 miles per second (30 kilometers/second) while the sun orbits around the center of the Milky Way Galaxy nearly at 135 miles/second (217 kilometers/second). Thus every day, the earth is more than 11.6 million miles (18.8 million kilometers) away from where it was at the same time on the previous day. And this does not include the movement of our galaxy in relation to the rest of our universe, or that of the local galaxy cluster it belongs to. Does heaven itself somehow shadow and keep pace with the earth's movement through the universe? If so, it must be a purely local phenomenon.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_oneprfct
_Emeritus
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:06 pm

Re: The Concept of Death

Post by _oneprfct »

I believe in multiple mortal probations. The universe is just a mental projection like a dream which we project because we believe we are guilty and incapable of experiencing heaven which is reality. After we seem to die we experience whatever we expect or believe as those who had near death experiences describe but eventually one's unconscious guilt arises to the surface and the psychological pain from that guilt causes our mind to seemingly reincarnate to get away from it. All spiritual paths are psychological methods for healing our unconscious guilt. Once that guilt is healed, we will no longer have any fear of God. Then the universe being nothing but a mental image will gently fade away into the brilliant light of light of heaven which is everywhere, infinite and limitless. The mind will awaken from the dream of time and space and return to heaven which is its natural state. Jesus' method for healing the mind of guilt was by forgiving others. It is only by forgiving others we forgive ourselves. When we have completely forgiven the world of everything, we will achieve the peace of God which is peace that cannot be shaken by anything. Jesus overcame the world by forgiving it of everything. He trained his mind to look past the world which is not real and saw only heaven as reality until that became his experience.
_sleepyhead
_Emeritus
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:44 pm

Re: The Concept of Death

Post by _sleepyhead »

hello,

My personal belief is reincarnation.
When I was Mormon I recall hearing the comment that as Brigham Young entered into the afterlife Joseph Smith was just leaving to become a God. In the song "praise to the Man" there's a phrase where Joseph Smith is mingling with Gods.
May all your naps be joyous occasions.
_bcuzbcuz
_Emeritus
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:14 pm

Re: The Concept of Death

Post by _bcuzbcuz »

oneprfct wrote:I believe in multiple mortal probations. The universe is just a mental projection like a dream which we project because we believe we are guilty and incapable of experiencing heaven which is reality. After we seem to die we experience whatever we expect or believe as those who had near death experiences describe but eventually one's unconscious guilt arises to the surface and the psychological pain from that guilt causes our mind to seemingly reincarnate to get away from it. All spiritual paths are psychological methods for healing our unconscious guilt. Once that guilt is healed, we will no longer have any fear of God. Then the universe being nothing but a mental image will gently fade away into the brilliant light of light of heaven which is everywhere, infinite and limitless. The mind will awaken from the dream of time and space and return to heaven which is its natural state. Jesus' method for healing the mind of guilt was by forgiving others. It is only by forgiving others we forgive ourselves. When we have completely forgiven the world of everything, we will achieve the peace of God which is peace that cannot be shaken by anything. Jesus overcame the world by forgiving it of everything. He trained his mind to look past the world which is not real and saw only heaven as reality until that became his experience.


Aren't you describing Mary Baker Eddy's defintion of reality?
Last edited by Guest on Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
_bcuzbcuz
_Emeritus
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:14 pm

Re: The Concept of Death

Post by _bcuzbcuz »

Gunnar wrote:According to Mormon doctrine, when we die, we all go to the spirit world to await final judgment and resurrection, which, for most of us, will not occur until after the second coming of Christ and the millennium. Though disembodied, we will be fully aware and conscious and able to freely interact socially with our fellow spirits. The spirit world is divided into two sections: paradise, where all faithful Mormons will go, and spirit prison, where everyone else will go and be proselyted to by Mormon missionary spirits. Those who convert will be released from spirit prison and join the Mormon spirits in paradise, after proxy baptism work has been performed for them in Mormon temples by Mormons who have not yet died.

Many people are fond of imagining that previously deceased loved ones can look down(?) upon them and keep track of what they are doing and how they are fairing back in the mortal world. If this is true, it raises the question of where, exactly, is this supposed spirit world? Does it somehow keep pace with or orbit the earth as it moves through space? The earth orbits the sun at a velocity of more that 18 miles per second (30 kilometers/second) while the sun orbits around the center of the Milky Way Galaxy nearly at 135 miles/second (217 kilometers/second). Thus every day, the earth is more than 11.6 million miles (18.8 million kilometers) away from where it was at the same time on the previous day. And this does not include the movement of our galaxy in relation to the rest of our universe, or that of the local galaxy cluster it belongs to. Does heaven itself somehow shadow and keep pace with the earth's movement through the universe? If so, it must be a purely local phenomenon.


So Mormons (the good ones, that is) get a free ride into the next existence, by a pre-sale judgement that lets them sit pretty for untold thousands (millions) of years. They must feel very good about their chances of promotion when the real judgement comes around.

But essentially your saying the world of paradise is extremely poorly described, with some vagaries about getting to proselytize to the unfortunate hordes (the other 99.9% of all human population to have ever existed).

Do the spirits in spirit prison have doorbells? Or doors to knock on? There obviously can't be a member/friend reference system since the good Mormons won't be around in their neighbourhood. Or are the spirit prison inhabitants just sitting around, doing nothing, totally bored to death (pun intended)?
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: The Concept of Death

Post by _Fence Sitter »

The spirit afterlife before the resurrection, in Mormon theology, is anther one of those areas, like the preexistence, where the capriciousness of the LDS God can be seen. Consider this.
Mormons believe the work they are doing in the temple has an immediate effect on those for whom the proxy work is being done. If this is true what about those for whom the work has not been done and cannot be done? The vast majority of people that have lived and died have done so anonymously. There simply are no names for the majority of these people. Are we to believe that these people are condemned to a lessor existence in the spirit world simply because they lived and died without leaving any record of their existence?

One of two possibilities can be envisioned. Either the temple work does not make a significant difference in the existence of those spirits for whom the work is done, or God's plan really is only cares about a small portion of the dead who were lucky enough to have their existence recorded somewhere.

Proxy work is just another feel good method to keep members paying tithing, that when one take the time to examine, it makes no sense.

By the way if spirits are made of matter, why can't they be baptized like live people?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_oneprfct
_Emeritus
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:06 pm

Re: The Concept of Death

Post by _oneprfct »

The ideas I wrote about were not from Mary Baker Eddy although she was inspired and closer to Jesus philosophy than the rest of Christianity. The ideas I expressed were from ACIM or A Course in Miracles. This book is 1,300 pages of Jesus explaining his philosophy on forgiveness. A research psychologist at Columbia University by the name of Helen Schucman heard a inner voice she felt was Jesus direct her to write down his words. She was raised Jewish but was atheist in belief when Jesus chose her to write down his words. She never went public with her experience and only a few of her closest friends were aware of her experience. She was ashamed to tell people of her experience because she thought it would ruin her career. She established a foundation to print ACIM and gave it the copyright so she never made a dime from the book.

ACIM is a spiritual masterpiece but I recommend reading Disappearance of the Universe by Gary Renard first. 2 enlightened disciples of Jesus appeared to Gary in 1992 and told him that the Jesus that they knew was the same Jesus of ACIM. They explained Jesus's philosophy on forgiveness and gave a comprehensive explanation on spirituality. They even made an interesting statement about Joseph Smith in the second chapter of Disappearance. All of your questions about the spirit world and where it is at and even how the universe began are contained in this book. After reading this book I understand better the nature of Joseph Smith's spiritual experiences and the nature of all spiritual experiences. I believe Joseph Smith experienced most of what he said he experienced but what those experiences meant were misinterpreted by himself and others. I also believe David Whitmer was on to something in his Address to All Believers in Christ that Joseph made a mistake in allowing himself to be made a prophet instead of telling people to obtain their guidance directly from God like Nephi advised in 2 Nephi chapter 32. Nephi did not say follow the prophet but follow the spirit. Following the prophet is an example of what Nephi described as putting your trust in the arm of the flesh. He advised newly baptized persons to follow the spirit and not him.
_Gunnar
_Emeritus
Posts: 6315
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:17 am

Re: The Concept of Death

Post by _Gunnar »

bcuzbcuz wrote:
Gunnar wrote:According to Mormon doctrine, when we die, we all go to the spirit world to await final judgment and resurrection, which, for most of us, will not occur until after the second coming of Christ and the millennium. Though disembodied, we will be fully aware and conscious and able to freely interact socially with our fellow spirits. The spirit world is divided into two sections: paradise, where all faithful Mormons will go, and spirit prison, where everyone else will go and be proselyted to by Mormon missionary spirits. Those who convert will be released from spirit prison and join the Mormon spirits in paradise, after proxy baptism work has been performed for them in Mormon temples by Mormons who have not yet died.

Many people are fond of imagining that previously deceased loved ones can look down(?) upon them and keep track of what they are doing and how they are fairing back in the mortal world. If this is true, it raises the question of where, exactly, is this supposed spirit world? Does it somehow keep pace with or orbit the earth as it moves through space? The earth orbits the sun at a velocity of more that 18 miles per second (30 kilometers/second) while the sun orbits around the center of the Milky Way Galaxy nearly at 135 miles/second (217 kilometers/second). Thus every day, the earth is more than 11.6 million miles (18.8 million kilometers) away from where it was at the same time on the previous day. And this does not include the movement of our galaxy in relation to the rest of our universe, or that of the local galaxy cluster it belongs to. Does heaven itself somehow shadow and keep pace with the earth's movement through the universe? If so, it must be a purely local phenomenon.


So Mormons (the good ones, that is) get a free ride into the next existence, by a pre-sale judgement that lets them sit pretty for untold thousands (millions) of years. They must feel very good about their chances of promotion when the real judgement comes around.

But essentially your saying the world of paradise is extremely poorly described, with some vagaries about getting to proselytize to the unfortunate hordes (the other 99.9% of all human population to have ever existed).

Do the spirits in spirit prison have doorbells? Or doors to knock on? There obviously can't be a member/friend reference system since the good Mormons won't be around in their neighbourhood. Or are the spirit prison inhabitants just sitting around, doing nothing, totally bored to death (pun intended)?

I hope you understand that I was merely relating what Mormons believe and teach about the subject, not what I personally believe. I recognize the absurdity of that concept no less than you do. I have never heard any satisfactory or plausible answers to the questions you raised, nor do I think it likely that LDS authorities and apologists can come up with any.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_LittleNipper
_Emeritus
Posts: 4518
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: The Concept of Death

Post by _LittleNipper »

Fundamentalists believe what the Bible has to say. There will be a New Heaven and Earth created by God. This will be for those saved. There will be an eternal New Jerusalem. These unsaved will exist somewhere else but will have no part in this reality.
Post Reply