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Feeling Probed....

Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:37 pm
by _subgenius
Often I find an argument about emotions clouding judgment, Moroni's challenge being invalid, or that somehow (magically) one cannot (or should not prefer) blend emotion and reason.
My mind, and post, usually rely on 1 Cor2:12-14
But quite often I try evoke that Kirk was the Captain, while Spock and McCoy were merely counselors.

So, to that end I found the following article interesting:

Science 1997 (Feb 28, pg 1269). Here's the article in full:

"Intuition may deserve more respect than it gets these days. Although it's often dismissed along with emotion as obscuring clear, rational thought, a new study suggests that it plays a crucial role in humans' ability to make smart decisions.

Neuroscientists Antoine Bechara, Hanna Damasio, Daniel Tranel, and Antonio Damasio of the University of Iowa College of Medicine in Iowa City set out to shed light on the role of intuition and emotion in normal decision-making by studying a group of brain-damaged individuals who seem unable to make good decisions. Some drift in and out of marriages; others squander money or often offend co-workers inadvertently. On page 1293, the researchers unveil what seems to be the missing element in their decision-making. The patients lack intuition--that ability to know something without conscious reasoning--which many cognitive psychologists think may be based on memories of past emotions. "These findings are really exciting," says psychologist Stephen Kosslyn of Harvard University. "Emotion apparently is not something that necessarily clouds reasoning, but rather seems to provide an essential foundation for at least some kinds of reasoning."

Psychologists have long known that when people make decisions, whether it's choosing whom to marry or which breakfast cereal to buy, they draw on more than just rational thought. Indeed, says Harvard psychologist and author Howard Gardner, the new work "fits in with an impressive heap of individual studies" showing that people rely on a variety of emotional cues--ranging from a general sense of deja vu to specific feelings like fear--when making decisions.

The Damasios are well known for their registry of more than 2000 brain-damaged patients who participate in experiments designed to unravel how the brain works by determining what goes wrong when parts are missing (Science, 18 May 1990, p. 821). For several years, they have been trying to discover why patients with lesions of the ventromedial prefrontal cortex--the area of the brain right above the eyes--can perform well on intelligence-quotient and memory tests, but when faced with real-life decisions, they at first waffle, then make unwise choices. The same patients also display little I emotion, and the team wondered if emotional--rather than factual--memories might be missing.

To figure out what is going wrong with these patients, and, by extension, what goes right in uninjured brains, the researchers asked patients and a group of normal controls to perform a gambling task. Each subject was given $2000 and four decks of cards. They were told to turn over cards from any deck and to try to win as much money as possible. Although the subjects didn't know it, there were two types of decks. Most cards in the two "bad" decks gave the subjects a reward of $100, although a few told subjects to hand over large sums of money. Most cards in the two "good" decks, by contrast, carried rewards of only $50, but the penalty cards were less severe, too. In the long run, choosing cards from the bad decks resulted in an overall loss, while the good decks gave an overall gain. The task was "designed to resemble life," in its uncertainty, risks, and rewards, says Antonio Damasio. The players did not know when a money-losing card would arise in a deck and had no way to know when the task would end.

Previous work had shown that the brain-damaged patients were just as bad at choosing between good and bad decks as they were a life decisions. While normal subjects tended to pick from the good decks as soon as they had fumed over a large penalty card, the patients kept opting for cards from the bad decks. The earlier work further hinted that emotion played a role. During the task, the patients didn't exhibit much stress or nervousness, as measured by skin conductance response (SCR)--a sort of microsweating that accompanies changes in emotion--even after they'd fumed over several big penalty cards. By contrast, once normal players had encountered penalties, they began showing large SCRs just before choosing from a bad deck.

In the current study, the team tried to determine whether the emotional response and the card choices were based on conscious reasoning by introducing a new element into the task: They interrupted the game periodically to ask players what they thought was going on. Interestingly, the normal players began picking more often from the good decks and showing high SCRs well before they could articulate to the researchers that picking from the good decks seemed to be a better long-term strategy. And although three of the 10 normal subjects never had more than a hunch that some decks were good and some bad, they still picked more cards from the good decks and showed high SCRs before fuming over bad-deck cards.

The brain-damaged patients, on the other hand, never expressed a hunch that some decks seemed to be riskier. Further, even after they had a theory as to which decks were bad, they continued to choose from them part of the time. (When asked to explain their choices, Damasio says, the patients said they thought it was more exciting to play from the risky decks, or that one could never tell when the rules might chance.)

Although not all the results were statistically significant, the authors say the overall findings suggest that in normal people, nonconscious emotional signals may well factor into decision-making before conscious processes do. Antonio Damasio believes the ventromedial prefrontal cortex is part of a system that stores information about past rewards and punishments, and triggers the nonconscious emotional responses that normal people may register as intuition or a "hunch." Read Montague, a neuroscientist at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, agrees: "Something has collected the statistics ... and starts nudging behavior all before [the subjects] know what is happening." But when that ability is gone, says Gardner, the person has no "early-warning system)' to guide their reasoning and, in the face of uncertainty, have difficulty making any choice at all.

Damasio stresses that the early-warning system does not act alone. Humans, after all, are set apart from animals by their ability to reason, he says. Still, "human beings are also the sum of all their previous emotional experiences of rewards and punishments"--experiences from which we learn, it seems, whether we know it or not."


http://www.sciencemag.org/content/275/5304/1269.summary

“But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.” - D&C 9:8

See also:
"Principles of Decision Making"
https://www.LDS.org/manual/principles-o ... g?lang=eng


So, does this help anyone understand the strength in utilizing emotion as one of the tools for making good decisions?

Re: Feeling Probed....

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:54 am
by _Themis
subgenius wrote:

So, does this help anyone understand the strength in utilizing emotion as one of the tools for making good decisions?


Just remember it only one of the tools, and one that can get things very wrong as well.

Re: Feeling Probed....

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:50 am
by _Gunnar
It is historically established that some of the greatest advances in scientific knowledge began as flashes of intuition followed up by the scientists who had them. Who knows what caused these flashes? They could have resulted from random neuro-electrical activity in the brain, subconscious correlation of accumulated but dimly recalled data stored in the brain, some kind of physical stimulus, lucky guesses, perhaps even divine inspiration of some sort (if you will), or any combination of those or as yet unknown factors. However, the only such scientific intuitions that are likely to be remembered and recorded are those whose validity is eventually confirmed when followed up and tested by appropriately designed experimentation and inquiry. The intuitions that are invalid or lead to dead ends (which is likely true of the vast majority of them) are usually quickly forgotten. I know that in my own case, I have intuited things that turned out to be wrong. I tend not to remember the details of those intuitions--only that I have had them on occasion. The few intuitions I have had that turned out to be right are much more gratifying and easier to remember.

Re: Feeling Probed....

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:41 pm
by _subgenius
Themis wrote:
subgenius wrote:

So, does this help anyone understand the strength in utilizing emotion as one of the tools for making good decisions?


Just remember it only one of the tools, and one that can get things very wrong as well.

thanks for the confirming the results of the brain-damaged test subjects mentioned above.
You are so entrenched that you will dismiss science as it interferes with your ego...nice.

"perform well on intelligence-quotient and memory tests, but when faced with real-life decisions, they at first waffle, then make unwise choices. The same patients also display little I emotion, and the team wondered if emotional--rather than factual--memories might be missing."

missing? in some cases, probably...but your post makes me wonder if they are just being habitually denied in an effort to acquire some yet to be created internet forum award.

Re: Feeling Probed....

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:41 pm
by _Themis
subgenius wrote:thanks for the confirming the results of the brain-damaged test subjects mentioned above.
You are so entrenched that you will dismiss science as it interferes with your ego...nice.

"perform well on intelligence-quotient and memory tests, but when faced with real-life decisions, they at first waffle, then make unwise choices. The same patients also display little I emotion, and the team wondered if emotional--rather than factual--memories might be missing."

missing? in some cases, probably...but your post makes me wonder if they are just being habitually denied in an effort to acquire some yet to be created internet forum award.


So are you saying then that emotions are the only tool, and emotions in decision making never gets things very wrong? Really?

Re: Feeling Probed....

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:07 pm
by _subgenius
Themis wrote:
So are you saying then that emotions are the only tool, and emotions in decision making never gets things very wrong? Really?

Typical, Themis - reads what he wants.
If you take a quick moment and look at the top post, what we often term the "OP" you will see the following line ( a line I assume you saw, because you all but quoted it in your first post)
- "So, does this help anyone understand the strength in utilizing emotion as one of the tools for making good decisions?" (emphasis mine)

This sentiment has not been altered, revised, or dismissed since I first put it forth.....soooo...
Why are you suddenly confused?...
...making the above mentioned case for "memories might be missing"?

Re: Feeling Probed....

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:18 pm
by _Themis
subgenius wrote:
Themis wrote:
So are you saying then that emotions are the only tool, and emotions in decision making never gets things very wrong? Really?

Typical, Themis - reads what he wants.
If you take a quick moment and look at the top post, what we often term the "OP" you will see the following line ( a line I assume you saw, because you all but quoted it in your first post)
- "So, does this help anyone understand the strength in utilizing emotion as one of the tools for making good decisions?" (emphasis mine)

This sentiment has not been altered, revised, or dismissed since I first put it forth.....soooo...
Why are you suddenly confused?...
...making the above mentioned case for "memories might be missing"?


So you are suggesting I didn't read your OP when it's obvious you didn't read what I said in one simple sentence. Now do you agree that one can get things very wrong using emotion as one of the tools in decision making?

Re: Feeling Probed....

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:23 pm
by _subgenius
Themis wrote:
So you are suggesting I didn't read your OP when it's obvious you didn't read what I said in one simple sentence. Now do you agree that one can get things very wrong using emotion as one of the tools in decision making?

i am not suggesting anything, i was fairly clear was i not? are you always so paranoid?
exactly how is there any emotional confusion between me stating - "one of the tools"
vs
you following up with "are you saying then that emotions are the only tool"?

do you see that?

i say one of the toolS <----plural
and you say "the only tool"? <----not so plural

admittedly, i am now considering that there is only one tool on this thread.

Re: Feeling Probed....

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:24 pm
by _Themis
subgenius wrote:
Themis wrote:
So you are suggesting I didn't read your OP when it's obvious you didn't read what I said in one simple sentence. Now do you agree that one can get things very wrong using emotion as one of the tools in decision making?

i am not suggesting anything, i was fairly clear was i not? are you always so paranoid?


Paranoid of what? I made a comment with two points and you got all bent out of shape and then tried to insult my intelligence to make your self feel smarter. So I asked some questions about those two points to see if you were disagreeing with one or both. You apparently agree with the first, so not sure why you got all bent out of shape. You seem to be ignoring whether you agree or not with the second. I already you know you try to avoid taking positions in order to not have to defend them while you attack others on their positions. Most can usually figure out your position on most subjects.

Re: Feeling Probed....

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:01 pm
by _subgenius
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