Why humans are born handicapped and minorities

[Guest]

"This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valient, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations...." (Decisions for Successful Living pp 164-65) TLDP:497

Therefore handicapped people were not valient enough in the preexistence.

The Negro and Handicapped must have been bad in the pre-existence


http://i.imgur.com/3arjdtr.jpg


http://mormonquotes.com/Blacks

[_moksha]

"This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valient, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations...." (Decisions for Successful Living pp 164-65) TLDP:497

I don't know what President Harold B. Lee was thinking as he wrote this, but apparently back then the editors at Deseret Book were afraid to broach the inherent ramifications of this statement and work with him on coming up with something Christ-like to say.

Maybe an appologist could put a positive slant on this statement.

[_Always Changing]

Mormonism's answers to the problem of pain are so weak that I am surprised that some Mormons work with those who suffer. Of course, there is always the possibility of such work getting converts for the church, but they won't pay much in tithes. For me, It just proves that there are good Mormons.

[_subgenius]

Is this quote by Lee not a bit out of context? I mean, during conference when he stated this he initiates the thought with James 5:28-29 - whereas we see that the condition of our next life is influenced by the actions/choices of this life...and therefore, as he reasons, the conditions for this life must be influenced by the actions/choices of our previous life.
When we read John 9:2, we understand this "reasoning" from Christ's Apostles ("And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?")...
However, Christ responds with the notion that there is a purpose for the blindness, and that it is not a punishment...but an opportunity.
Now is President Lee reasoning that this opportunity is some sort of Divine collusion? Are two righteous spirits taking part i n some sort of confidence game to bolster Christ's "healing power"?...or is Christ actually "healing"?
Is it not possible that, given Mormon doctrine, that a less than righteous spirit occupies a less than righteous body merely to advance in this life? That, given the fact that we are not perfect, that our obstacles and challenges are according to our own needs?

I mean, on the surface, President Lee's statement is certainly abrasive and offends the temporal sensibilities of the weak minded. But, given what Christ has taught, how suffering is regarded in the Gospel, and the Doctrine of pre-existence his statement here is actually much deeper in its resolution.

Or is it your contention that "handicap" people and "minorities" are merely God's object lessons for the able-bodied and majority?...at which case you may be even more bigoted than your alleged notion of Lee. If you contend to interpret John 9:3 as "them people" are put here for our purpose to learn about God, so that Jesus would have some props to perform with - then you certainly have that big log in your eye my friend.

[_huckelberry]

So MIttens, which church was it that invented that doctrine about the curse of Cain being the dark skin of people from Africa? Then there is the clever variation that they must some how be from Ham and cursed to be slaves. I am not sure of the birth point but I am sure it was not the church Brigham Young was a member of.

How do you relate to the little house of horrors contained in Christian history?

[_huckelberry]

Is this quote by Lee not a bit out of context? I mean, during conference when he stated this he initiates the thought with James 5:28-29 - whereas we see that the condition of our next life is influenced by the actions/choices of this life...and therefore, as he reasons, the conditions for this life must be influenced by the actions/choices of our previous life.
When we read John 9:2, we understand this "reasoning" from Christ's Apostles ("And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?")...
However, Christ responds with the notion that there is a purpose for the blindness, and that it is not a punishment...but an opportunity.
Now is President Lee reasoning that this opportunity is some sort of Divine collusion? Are two righteous spirits taking part i n some sort of confidence game to bolster Christ's "healing power"?...or is Christ actually "healing"?
Is it not possible that, given Mormon doctrine, that a less than righteous spirit occupies a less than righteous body merely to advance in this life? That, given the fact that we are not perfect, that our obstacles and challenges are according to our own needs?

I mean, on the surface, President Lee's statement is certainly abrasive and offends the temporal sensibilities of the weak minded. But, given what Christ has taught, how suffering is regarded in the Gospel, and the Doctrine of pre-existence his statement here is actually much deeper in its resolution.

Or is it your contention that "handicap" people and "minorities" are merely God's object lessons for the able-bodied and majority?...at which case you may be even more bigoted than your alleged notion of Lee. If you contend to interpret John 9:3 as "them people" are put here for our purpose to learn about God, so that Jesus would have some props to perform with - then you certainly have that big log in your eye my friend.

" given the fact that we are not perfect, that our obstacles and challenges are according to our own needs?"
Subgenius,
I can see that all of us are not perfect and we all have challenges so I can connect to your comment a little. However you seem to have fallen into saying that the person born blind in the John passage was born that way as a direct results of his failings in the preexistence. Because such failings are volitional they would be sins. You have said he was born blind due to his sin in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus.

////adding
I was going to reply to your comment about a Divine collusion but decided I really did not know what you were thinking of with that comment.

I think we all share in various ways in the frailities of the flesh and though I do not believe sin is the only element of that frailty but I do think it is an important partand I figure none of us are free of that disablity.

[_moksha]

Subgenius, perhaps this will help:

John 9:2-5 The Message Bible
True Blindness

9 1-2 Walking down the street, Jesus saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked, “Rabbi, who sinned: this man or his parents, causing him to be born blind?”

3-5 Jesus said, “You’re asking the wrong question. You’re looking for someone to blame. There is no such cause-effect here. Look instead for what God can do.

[_ludwigm]

Look instead for what God can do.

Look instead what God could do.


From Stanislaw Lem's Cyberiad, the novel Altruizine (sorry, Quasimodo...):

Consider the hunchback we spoke of earlier—there Ignorance is indeed Bliss, for he believes his hump fulfills some cosmic role in the great work of Creation. Telling him that it's actually the product of a molecular accident will only serve to make him despair. Better to straighten the hump in the first place…"
"Yes, of course!" Klapaucius exclaimed.
"We did that too. My grandfather once straightened three hundred hunchbacks with a wave of the hand. And how he regretted it afterwards!"
"Why?" I couldn't help but ask.
"Why? One hundred and twelve of them were immediately boiled in oil, their sudden and miraculous cure being taken for a sure sign that they'd sold their souls to the Devil; thirty, no longer exempt from conscription, were promptly called up and soon fell in various battles under various flags; seventeen straightway succumbed to the shock of their good fortune; and the remainder, since my esteemed grandfather saw fit to further bless them with great beauty of form, wasted away through an overindulgence in erotic activity—deprived of these pleasures for so long, you see, they now hurled themselves into every sort of debauchery, and in such a violent and unbridled fashion, that within two years not one was left among the living. Well, there was an exception… but it's hardly worth mentioning."
"Go on, let's hear it all!" cried Klapaucius, and I could tell that he was greatly troubled.
"If you insist… Two remained, actually. The first presented himself before my grandfather and pleaded on bended knee for the return of his hump. It seems that as a cripple he had lived comfortably enough on charity, but now had to work and was quite unaccustomed to it. What was worse, now that he was straightened, he kept bumping his head on door lintels…"
"And the second?" asked Klapaucius.
"The second was a prince who had been denied succession to the throne on acount of his deformity. In light of its sudden correction, his stepmother, to insure her own son's position, had him poisoned…"

Read viewtopic.php?p=696155#p696155 for more.

[_Bazooka]

Is this quote by Lee not a bit out of context? I mean, during conference when he stated this he initiates the thought with James 5:28-29 - whereas we see that the condition of our next life is influenced by the actions/choices of this life...and therefore, as he reasons, the conditions for this life must be influenced by the actions/choices of our previous life.
When we read John 9:2, we understand this "reasoning" from Christ's Apostles ("And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?")...
However, Christ responds with the notion that there is a purpose for the blindness, and that it is not a punishment...but an opportunity.
Now is President Lee reasoning that this opportunity is some sort of Divine collusion? Are two righteous spirits taking part i n some sort of confidence game to bolster Christ's "healing power"?...or is Christ actually "healing"?
Is it not possible that, given Mormon doctrine, that a less than righteous spirit occupies a less than righteous body merely to advance in this life? That, given the fact that we are not perfect, that our obstacles and challenges are according to our own needs?

I mean, on the surface, President Lee's statement is certainly abrasive and offends the temporal sensibilities of the weak minded. But, given what Christ has taught, how suffering is regarded in the Gospel, and the Doctrine of pre-existence his statement here is actually much deeper in its resolution.

Or is it your contention that "handicap" people and "minorities" are merely God's object lessons for the able-bodied and majority?...at which case you may be even more bigoted than your alleged notion of Lee. If you contend to interpret John 9:3 as "them people" are put here for our purpose to learn about God, so that Jesus would have some props to perform with - then you certainly have that big log in your eye my friend.

When growing up in the Church I was taught that handicapped people were special spirits, who were more righteous in the pre-existence and were sent here as a means to test the valiance of others in this life. I don't know which is worse, Harold B Lee's explanation or what I was taught.

[_Always Changing]

When growing up in the Church I was taught that handicapped people were special spirits, who were more righteous in the pre-existence and were sent here as a means to test the valiance of others in this life. I don't know which is worse, Harold B Lee's explanation or what I was taught.

Exactly. Is it a punishment on the parents? <sarcasm alert> Perhaps we need to punish the parents more, by delivering babysitting services to parents of special education students, instead of providing those students with an education designed to reduce the effects of their exceptionalities. Of course, it should be more so for non-Mormons and apostates.