Joseph Smith's first book published " The Book of Mormon " actually condemns his theological teachings
Just one example below
"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)
The Godhead consists of the three distinct personages and three gods.. The Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Father and Son have bodies of flesh and bones, while the Holy Spirit is a personage of spirit. Robert Millet A Different Jesus page 198
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.
2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris
Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.
Seems like Mormons really have to swallow Joseph Smith hook line and sinker to justify the inconsistency's of his teachings with the Book of Mormon and the Bible
http://mit.irr.org/28-biblical-passa...e-only-one-god
The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith
-
_Mittens
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:07 am
The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
-
_Mittens
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:07 am
Re: The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith
The Book of Mormon seems to agree almost completely with the 4th and 5th century Creeds, it seems apparent that the author or authors of the Book of Mormon intended the Book to agree with these Creeds.
The Creeds teach that with in the nature of the One God there is three separate and distinct persons, :eg: when Jesus prayed to the Father he was praying to a separate and distinct person. At Jesus' baptism we had Jesus being baptized , the Father in heaven saying this is my beloved son a separate person and the Holy Spirit a separate person symbolized as a dove.
verses below point this teaching out
2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris
The Creeds teach God the Father, Jehovah and the Holy Spirit are non-created without Father or Mother and equal, Alma 11:44 points this out as Mosiah 15:3 also
Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
The Creeds teach Jesus emptied that equality with the other persons of the Godhead when he became man , that's why Jesus said the Father was greater than him . On line 33 of the Athanasion Creed it says Jesus was inferior to the Father
Jesus Stripped his equality with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and humbled himself to the form of a slave.
”Who although being essentially one with God and in the Form of God {possessing the fullness of the attributes which make GOD GOD} did not think this equality with God was a thing to be grasped or retained.” Philippians 2:6 Amplified version
“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.” 2 Cor. 8:9
Hebrews 12
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
In the original language “for the joy” means “he exchanged Joy for Shame”.
Thank you Jesus for coming down from your throne in heaven where you were the Almighty God, “EL SHADDAI”, The Great I AM creator of all things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible, thrones, dominions, and principalities and powers . You were rich yet you became poor. You were Almighty yet you emptied yourself and became a humble slave, you exchanged joy for sorrow , sorrow by dying a shameful death on a cross as a criminal even thou you had no sin . Thank you Jesus
Luke 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
It's interesting how Jesus The Almighty God the creator of everything that exist both in heaven and earth humbled himself to a point where he was obedient to Mary and Joseph one of the poorest couples in the world he created.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Rev 3: 14 “To the angel (divine messenger) of the church in Laodicea write: “These are the words of the Amen, the trusted and faithful and true Witness, the Beginning and Origin of God’s creation:
https://youtu.be/lFFkS0FhENQ
E. Calvin Beisner
God in Three Persons
The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:
The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal
When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.
We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24
first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.
(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]
One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.
The Creeds teach that with in the nature of the One God there is three separate and distinct persons, :eg: when Jesus prayed to the Father he was praying to a separate and distinct person. At Jesus' baptism we had Jesus being baptized , the Father in heaven saying this is my beloved son a separate person and the Holy Spirit a separate person symbolized as a dove.
verses below point this teaching out
2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris
The Creeds teach God the Father, Jehovah and the Holy Spirit are non-created without Father or Mother and equal, Alma 11:44 points this out as Mosiah 15:3 also
Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
The Creeds teach Jesus emptied that equality with the other persons of the Godhead when he became man , that's why Jesus said the Father was greater than him . On line 33 of the Athanasion Creed it says Jesus was inferior to the Father
Jesus Stripped his equality with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and humbled himself to the form of a slave.
”Who although being essentially one with God and in the Form of God {possessing the fullness of the attributes which make GOD GOD} did not think this equality with God was a thing to be grasped or retained.” Philippians 2:6 Amplified version
“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.” 2 Cor. 8:9
Hebrews 12
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
In the original language “for the joy” means “he exchanged Joy for Shame”.
Thank you Jesus for coming down from your throne in heaven where you were the Almighty God, “EL SHADDAI”, The Great I AM creator of all things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible, thrones, dominions, and principalities and powers . You were rich yet you became poor. You were Almighty yet you emptied yourself and became a humble slave, you exchanged joy for sorrow , sorrow by dying a shameful death on a cross as a criminal even thou you had no sin . Thank you Jesus
Luke 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
It's interesting how Jesus The Almighty God the creator of everything that exist both in heaven and earth humbled himself to a point where he was obedient to Mary and Joseph one of the poorest couples in the world he created.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Rev 3: 14 “To the angel (divine messenger) of the church in Laodicea write: “These are the words of the Amen, the trusted and faithful and true Witness, the Beginning and Origin of God’s creation:
https://youtu.be/lFFkS0FhENQ
E. Calvin Beisner
God in Three Persons
The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:
The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal
When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.
We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24
first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.
(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]
One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
-
_Franktalk
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 2689
- Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:28 am
Re: The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith
I see the scriptures as pointers. They help us get pointed in a direction so we can obtain truth. To me it was Christ who gave us the most important point to follow.
Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Since Christ said all truth is obtained in the inward journey then we should be very careful when we say the scriptures are true. It is my belief that most of the scriptures are symbolic in nature and real truth is only obtained the way Christ said it is obtained. Christ did not say truth comes from a prophet. Christ did not say truth comes from the scriptures. But Christ did say that truth comes from seeking within for the spirit and that spirit will lead us to all truth.
So the job of Joseph was to get people to seek within. Sadly most of his followers did not want that. What they wanted was a prophet like Moses who treated them like spoiled children and gave them what they wanted instead of the truth. So you can find numerous examples of flaws in the scriptures. But to explain why they are there is key to move past them to what Christ was pointing to. Sadly most see an error and stop. They are very happy to throw out the baby with the bath water.
Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Since Christ said all truth is obtained in the inward journey then we should be very careful when we say the scriptures are true. It is my belief that most of the scriptures are symbolic in nature and real truth is only obtained the way Christ said it is obtained. Christ did not say truth comes from a prophet. Christ did not say truth comes from the scriptures. But Christ did say that truth comes from seeking within for the spirit and that spirit will lead us to all truth.
So the job of Joseph was to get people to seek within. Sadly most of his followers did not want that. What they wanted was a prophet like Moses who treated them like spoiled children and gave them what they wanted instead of the truth. So you can find numerous examples of flaws in the scriptures. But to explain why they are there is key to move past them to what Christ was pointing to. Sadly most see an error and stop. They are very happy to throw out the baby with the bath water.
-
_jo1952
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1118
- Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:04 am
Re: The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith
As a prophet, Joseph Smith was mandated to give the people what they wanted...even when what they wanted had nothing to do with the Real Truth.
The Creeds are an interpretation of men about what they think Christ taught. In other words, they are the precepts of men. Christ never taught creeds.
The concept of the Trinity is still a hotly debated concept in Christendom. It is even believed by many Christians to be a necessary part of a person's belief in order to qualify them for being considered a Christian; In other words, if a person doesn't believe in the Trinity, then they aren't really a Christian. Christ never taught this is something to be believed. The belief that it must be believed is also a construct of man.
Inasmuch as the people surrounding Joseph thought that the Trinity should be addressed, he told them what they wanted to hear. He knew that it didn't agree with what he had translated in the Book of Mormon; but he did know that the Trinity is something which Christians believed---even though it was not a principle of the gospel Christ taught. He also knew it had nothing to do with the Real Truth. He knew what the Real Truth was. All TRUE "prophets" know the same Real Truth. As seen in the Old Testament, Moses gave the people what they wanted---religion---after they rejected meeting the Lord. They wanted Moses to be their go-between. As soon as people reject the Lord or His message, a true prophet is mandated to give the people what they want. This does not mean that what they get is what Christ wants....but He allows the people to get what they want because free will dictates that we can have what we want.
The story of Christ's visit to the Nephites in the Book of Mormon also demonstrates that even Christ gave the people religion as soon as they rejected His message. He had asked the people to do something after He had delivered His gospel message; but they didn't do it. They hung around wanting more than the message. He groaned within....recognizing that anything which was desired which was beyond the mark of the gospel message He had delivered, was iniquity. He knew that what they wanted was religion. He groaned due to this wickedness...so He wound up giving them what they wanted...religion.
The following was taught by Christ....please note that it says nothing about a "trinity"....in fact, He tells us that you can speak against the Son of Man and it shall be forgiven him (this also doesn't even require asking for forgiveness....it just gets forgiven). It is only the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which can't be forgiven--in fact, even the Christian belief about how Christ forgives sins can be seen to NOT be applicable to this sin; .
True prophets...like Christ...bring their messages to the already religious. In order to be able to have enough credibility for those religious to listen to their message (which does not equate to the people being able to understand---be able to hear---the message...this is just so that the religious will at least listen), prophets use the words/terminology of the religious. This also does not mean that the prophets (including Christ) condoned the religion....they were merely using the words familiar to those caught up in religion. That said, what did Christ mean that "whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost"? Let's consider that He was speaking to people who believed in a "God"/"Father", in a Son of man (the Messiah they were expecting who was supposed to come and "save" them), and in a "Holy Spirit". Now let's take a look at some of the other things Christ taught:
What was the work He did? It was the words He shared! Again, this is also where Christ declares that His work is finished!! Again, this is BEFORE Gethsemane and the cross.
For those with the eyes to see and ears to hear, Christ was telling the people that we are the "Father"....this is His effort to use the term believed in by religion...and teaching us that WE are the Father. In other words (and by not interfering with the people's desire to believe in religion), He tried to teach us that there is no such thing as what they believed in. We are the creators, we are the all-knowing, we are the eternal who have always been...and always will be. It is just that once we enter mortality a veil is placed over our minds which prevents us from remembering who we are and why we are here.
So, what is the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which can't be forgiven? Christ used the belief in a Holy Ghost to represent the connection between our advanced self (the Father) and our mortal/natural man/satan/enemy of God self. Until we are able to understand what Christ was trying to teach those with the eyes to see and ears to hear, we will remain in a state of attachment to only our natural man/satan/enemy of God self; In other words, we won't be in-tuned with our advanced self. As a result, we remain unforgiven in that we aren't able to recognize the Real Truth about what is going on here or who we really are. This is not something up to Christ to forgive; He can't control our thoughts. It is up to US to believe what He was trying to teach us. That's why He taught that we could blaspheme against Him and it would still be forgiven. It's just that by not believing what He taught, the mortal man will spend their time here blaspheming against their own self---i.e., not being able to believe that they are the Father (which is why Christ can't forgive this...this something we need to work out for ourselves. When we do, we are forgiven....and it is our self that does the forgiving.
In the second estate, we are the Father. In this third estate...mortality...we are the son (having been created by the Father)....and the Holy Ghost is our connection with our advanced self (the Father). While Joseph understood this, he was not able to teach it plainly because he was mandated to tell the people what they wanted to hear and what they wanted to receive. As the "Son of man", Christ's role is different from ours...His relationship with us is unique. No other of us in this eternal round has the role of Christ...this is His alone. Joseph tried to expound upon what Christ tried to teach...Joseph gave us some clues (such as the teaching about three estates); but he eventually had to give the people what they wanted in order to respect their free will desires.
Meanwhile, I'll reiterate that a belief in a "holy trinity" is not something mandated by Christ; it is a precept taught by men. I understand that the concept of the Holy Trinity is something held dearly by the Orthodox Christian. You also have the free will to believe whatever you want to believe; just as I do.
As a footnote, Joseph revealed many more things about who we are and what is really going on here through the Endowment. Unfortunately, no one in the Church understands anything he was trying to teach. In fact, even though they claim that the Endowment is sacred and that the message is unchanging, the Church has gone ahead and made several changes to it in their ignorance.
The Creeds are an interpretation of men about what they think Christ taught. In other words, they are the precepts of men. Christ never taught creeds.
The concept of the Trinity is still a hotly debated concept in Christendom. It is even believed by many Christians to be a necessary part of a person's belief in order to qualify them for being considered a Christian; In other words, if a person doesn't believe in the Trinity, then they aren't really a Christian. Christ never taught this is something to be believed. The belief that it must be believed is also a construct of man.
Inasmuch as the people surrounding Joseph thought that the Trinity should be addressed, he told them what they wanted to hear. He knew that it didn't agree with what he had translated in the Book of Mormon; but he did know that the Trinity is something which Christians believed---even though it was not a principle of the gospel Christ taught. He also knew it had nothing to do with the Real Truth. He knew what the Real Truth was. All TRUE "prophets" know the same Real Truth. As seen in the Old Testament, Moses gave the people what they wanted---religion---after they rejected meeting the Lord. They wanted Moses to be their go-between. As soon as people reject the Lord or His message, a true prophet is mandated to give the people what they want. This does not mean that what they get is what Christ wants....but He allows the people to get what they want because free will dictates that we can have what we want.
The story of Christ's visit to the Nephites in the Book of Mormon also demonstrates that even Christ gave the people religion as soon as they rejected His message. He had asked the people to do something after He had delivered His gospel message; but they didn't do it. They hung around wanting more than the message. He groaned within....recognizing that anything which was desired which was beyond the mark of the gospel message He had delivered, was iniquity. He knew that what they wanted was religion. He groaned due to this wickedness...so He wound up giving them what they wanted...religion.
The following was taught by Christ....please note that it says nothing about a "trinity"....in fact, He tells us that you can speak against the Son of Man and it shall be forgiven him (this also doesn't even require asking for forgiveness....it just gets forgiven). It is only the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which can't be forgiven--in fact, even the Christian belief about how Christ forgives sins can be seen to NOT be applicable to this sin; .
Matthew 12:31 ¶Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
True prophets...like Christ...bring their messages to the already religious. In order to be able to have enough credibility for those religious to listen to their message (which does not equate to the people being able to understand---be able to hear---the message...this is just so that the religious will at least listen), prophets use the words/terminology of the religious. This also does not mean that the prophets (including Christ) condoned the religion....they were merely using the words familiar to those caught up in religion. That said, what did Christ mean that "whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost"? Let's consider that He was speaking to people who believed in a "God"/"Father", in a Son of man (the Messiah they were expecting who was supposed to come and "save" them), and in a "Holy Spirit". Now let's take a look at some of the other things Christ taught:
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
What was the work He did? It was the words He shared! Again, this is also where Christ declares that His work is finished!! Again, this is BEFORE Gethsemane and the cross.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
For those with the eyes to see and ears to hear, Christ was telling the people that we are the "Father"....this is His effort to use the term believed in by religion...and teaching us that WE are the Father. In other words (and by not interfering with the people's desire to believe in religion), He tried to teach us that there is no such thing as what they believed in. We are the creators, we are the all-knowing, we are the eternal who have always been...and always will be. It is just that once we enter mortality a veil is placed over our minds which prevents us from remembering who we are and why we are here.
So, what is the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which can't be forgiven? Christ used the belief in a Holy Ghost to represent the connection between our advanced self (the Father) and our mortal/natural man/satan/enemy of God self. Until we are able to understand what Christ was trying to teach those with the eyes to see and ears to hear, we will remain in a state of attachment to only our natural man/satan/enemy of God self; In other words, we won't be in-tuned with our advanced self. As a result, we remain unforgiven in that we aren't able to recognize the Real Truth about what is going on here or who we really are. This is not something up to Christ to forgive; He can't control our thoughts. It is up to US to believe what He was trying to teach us. That's why He taught that we could blaspheme against Him and it would still be forgiven. It's just that by not believing what He taught, the mortal man will spend their time here blaspheming against their own self---i.e., not being able to believe that they are the Father (which is why Christ can't forgive this...this something we need to work out for ourselves. When we do, we are forgiven....and it is our self that does the forgiving.
In the second estate, we are the Father. In this third estate...mortality...we are the son (having been created by the Father)....and the Holy Ghost is our connection with our advanced self (the Father). While Joseph understood this, he was not able to teach it plainly because he was mandated to tell the people what they wanted to hear and what they wanted to receive. As the "Son of man", Christ's role is different from ours...His relationship with us is unique. No other of us in this eternal round has the role of Christ...this is His alone. Joseph tried to expound upon what Christ tried to teach...Joseph gave us some clues (such as the teaching about three estates); but he eventually had to give the people what they wanted in order to respect their free will desires.
Meanwhile, I'll reiterate that a belief in a "holy trinity" is not something mandated by Christ; it is a precept taught by men. I understand that the concept of the Holy Trinity is something held dearly by the Orthodox Christian. You also have the free will to believe whatever you want to believe; just as I do.
As a footnote, Joseph revealed many more things about who we are and what is really going on here through the Endowment. Unfortunately, no one in the Church understands anything he was trying to teach. In fact, even though they claim that the Endowment is sacred and that the message is unchanging, the Church has gone ahead and made several changes to it in their ignorance.
-
_Mittens
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:07 am
Re: The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith
COUNSEL GIVEN BY PRESIDENT CHARLES W. PENROSE
Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." Well, what is the fulness of the gospel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, Section 76, in the Doctrine and Covenants, and you find there defined what the gospel is. There God, the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his Son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three Persons in the Trinity—the one God, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principles, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason: If you really believe so as to have faith in our Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, and will hear him, you will learn ail about what is needed to be done for the salvation of the living and redemption of the dead.
. (General Conference Report, April 1922, pp. 27-28.)
Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." Well, what is the fulness of the gospel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, Section 76, in the Doctrine and Covenants, and you find there defined what the gospel is. There God, the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his Son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three Persons in the Trinity—the one God, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principles, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason: If you really believe so as to have faith in our Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, and will hear him, you will learn ail about what is needed to be done for the salvation of the living and redemption of the dead.
. (General Conference Report, April 1922, pp. 27-28.)
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
-
_jo1952
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1118
- Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:04 am
Re: The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith
Mittens wrote:COUNSEL GIVEN BY PRESIDENT CHARLES W. PENROSE
Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." Well, what is the fulness of the gospel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, Section 76, in the Doctrine and Covenants, and you find there defined what the gospel is. There God, the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his Son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three Persons in the Trinity—the one God, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principles, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason: If you really believe so as to have faith in our Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, and will hear him, you will learn ail about what is needed to be done for the salvation of the living and redemption of the dead.
. (General Conference Report, April 1922, pp. 27-28.)
The Church does not know or understand the Book of Mormon. They continue to not even realize that Joseph only gave them religion because they had rejected what Christ taught....now from two different sources---the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Instead, they believed that when Joseph gave them the religion they desired that this was proof that "God" was treating them differently...special....than all others. They don't understand what it means that God is not a respecter of persons or that all are alike unto God. Like other Christians, they think that God treats them differently because they have followed what religion has taught them to do.
The Book of Mormon even teaches that genealogy is not of God.
1 Nephi 6:1 And now I, Nephi, do not give the genealogy of my fathers in this part of my record; neither at any time shall I give it after upon these plates which I am writing; for it is given in the record which has been kept by my father; wherefore, I do not write it in this work.
2 For it sufficeth me to say that we are descendants of Joseph.
3 And it mattereth not to me that I am particular to give a full account of all the things of my father, for they cannot be written upon these plates, for I desire the room that I may write of the things of God.
4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.
5 Wherefore, the things which are pleasing unto the world I do not write, but the things which are pleasing unto God and unto those who are not of the world.
6 Wherefore, I shall give commandment unto my seed, that they shall not occupy these plates with things which are not of worth unto the children of men.
They don't understand because none of them are True Messengers. Orthodox Christians don't understand what Christ was trying to teach them either. They aren't able to understand because they also want religion. They also only can see and hear what Christ taught through the eyes and ears of their religious beliefs.
-
_Mittens
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:07 am
Re: The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith
Traditional Christians have always taught ONE GOD three persons, developed already in first chapter of the Bible. 1+1+1=1
Genesis 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 11:
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
Revelations 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Notice that even last chapter of the Bible tells us that God is the First and last God. So we have first chapter of the Bible to the last defining the Trinity Doctrine . Jesus also said that was the first and greatest command
Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: "
Why else would Mormons reject it
Genesis 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 11:
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
Revelations 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Notice that even last chapter of the Bible tells us that God is the First and last God. So we have first chapter of the Bible to the last defining the Trinity Doctrine . Jesus also said that was the first and greatest command
Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: "
Why else would Mormons reject it
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
-
_jo1952
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1118
- Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:04 am
Re: The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith
Mittens wrote:Traditional Christians have always taught ONE GOD three persons, developed already in first chapter of the Bible. 1+1+1=1
What, exactly, is a traditional Christian? Are they the Christians who only believed in the Trinity AFTER it was made an official doctrine? Because it was NOT something believed from the beginning by all those who followed the man called Christ. Even from the first when Christ began to have people follow Him around, there was no single set of official doctrines. In fact, Christ didn't teach doctrine...though He did address the doctrine of the already established religion of Judaism.
If one was to carefully study the history of the early church, and then move forward to the early church fathers, it can be seen how diverse beliefs and opinions were. Even after there was a core of men who became the early church fathers began to be recognized, there was no agreement. An agreement was forced to be made; and when the most powerful men had decided that this was what was needed to be doctrine, those most powerful men kicked those who weren't in agreement out of the church. Any who didn't agree with this doctrine instantly became heretics. It was no longer convenient to have anyone around who wouldn't accept the Trinity doctrine because those who didn't agree became a threat to those who had the power of control over the church. The Trinity had become a political tool used to bring the more powerful men control and prestige and glory and money; that is how it became doctrine. Aside from how it became doctrine, the methodology of how it works and what it exactly looks like, has remained a hot bed of debate. The RCC even admitted that it was a mystery that could not be understood...but that it still had to be believed in order for a person to be allowed to become a member of the RCC.
Unfortunately, it takes a lot of dedicated research to find the records that show what was going on. More than once, the history of the church shows that records were destroyed in order that the agenda of those who had power could hide what they didn't want others to find.
Revelations 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
YES!! When He returns, He is going to set up a government which will protect and guaranty the free will of the people. The free will they will be able to exercise will be in accordance with their desires. Our "work" can't be done that way now because mankind practices unrighteous dominion over mankind. We have never been able to create a government which works righteously. As a result, our free will is limited by what others will allow us to do; it is also limited because we need to work for our basic survival. Because our basic needs for living in this world aren't being met without having to work for them, we don't have time to be able to only do what we want to do (work in accordance with desires of our hearts). Christ will make sure that a system is set up which provides us with our basic needs. This will allow us to then act in accordance with complete free will (as our work shall be).
And YES! Christ was the first born into the second estate. A Christ is always the first in every eternal round....in every world that is ever created. His role is the most important role we need fulfilled....to monitor everyone participating in a world/eternal round and make sure we don't mess with each other's free will and keep any of us from breaking those rules which are set-up to protect the worlds we create. Once a Christ is created into a new eternal round (the first), He is raised with His role in mind. He watches His own personal "Heavenly Father" and learns everything that His Father has done in other worlds. He is also the last in a world/eternal round. In order to continue to protect the free will of all participants, He remains inside that world fulfilling His role until the last participant decides that he is finished participating. Once there is no one left to participate, there is no one's free will that needs to be protected--no one is left that might break that eternity's rules. That is when a Christ is finally relieved of His role (the last).
-
_jo1952
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1118
- Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:04 am
Re: The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith
Revelations 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Something else I would like to point out about this verse. He is the first born...born for the purpose of fulfilling a specific role. His role is to serve the others participating in this round of eternity/in this world. To be able to serve us is His reward.
His first appearance on earth was not only to deliver the words of the Father which the Father wanted us to hear, it was also a test to see if He would handle mortality with all of its challenges and suffering without wavering. His death was caused by unrighteous men; but even while suffering such a terrible death, He remained true. As an example of living in accordance with the words of the Father, Christ asked the Father to forgive them. He loved those people...It is Christianity that teaches we must accept Him as our Savior, that we must ask Him to forgive us, that we must get baptized with water in His name, that we must believe in the Trinity doctrine, that we must believe in a core set of beliefs in order to qualify being called a Christian and/or be "saved". This, even though this not required by the example set by Christ--even at His crucifixion. The people who killed Him had not met a single one of those criteria. Yet Christ asked the Father to forgive them....absolving them from their actions.
What was finished on the cross was His mortal sojourn. His work for the Father was finished as soon as He had delivered the words which the Father wanted to be heard. His physical death is not what saves us from the sin of the world. The words He delivered do. If a person has the eyes to see and ears to hear, they will be able to be freed from the concept of sin in which the world believes. Think how He was teaching the religious when He spoke His words..and how He kept using the phrase of "eyes to see and ears to hear"---it was for them because they were the blind and deaf. They were the ones caught up in religion and its ideas of sin, heaven, hell, "God", satan, etc. Those were the chains which held them; those were the chains and bondage Christ tried to free them from.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Inasmuch as Christianity does not believe this about Christ...and, especially, inasmuch as millions and millions of people have accepted the Christianity version of Christ....how then, can this be construed as only a "few there be that find it"??
Matthew 7:13 ¶Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
It is only very, very few who believe that Christ's work was finished BEFORE Gethsemane and the cross. There are only very, very few who believe the words of the Father which have freed them from the ideas which religion teach. As such, they are no longer bound by the chains of hell (because there is no hell!), or by the rules and laws concerning sin as taught by religion. They have been saved from that controlling precept of men which gains so much control over our free will---including our very thoughts. Further, by believing those words, they are able to know eternal life; In other words, that they are eternal beings who have no beginning and no end. As such, they can understand that they didn't just come into existence when they were born into mortality...and that they will only "enter" eternity at the moment of their death...they will see that they have always existed; and that they won't ever die.
Christianity, as do all religions, misses the mark of the simplicity of the gospel message. The rules and laws of religion make a wide gate which lead us into the beliefs held by religion...and away from the strait gate and narrow way.
-
_Amore
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 1094
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:27 pm
Re: The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith
"Thinking with integrity is paradoxical thinking."
God is both one and many.
"The kingdom of God is within you" and me, and billions others.
God is ultimate objective truth, but God is also subjective truth based on influences like the power of belief.
So, God may be symbolized by something we can relate to... (a man to Joseph) as well as something even easier to relate with (a demi-god like Jesus, since Joseph only knew Catholocized Christianity).
I theorize that if a modern (less traditionally chauvinistic) person had the same revelation, they'd have seen 2 personages as a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.
Then again, if a Hindu had the revelation, it could've been a series of gods as well as Brahman.
God is both one and many.
"The kingdom of God is within you" and me, and billions others.
God is ultimate objective truth, but God is also subjective truth based on influences like the power of belief.
So, God may be symbolized by something we can relate to... (a man to Joseph) as well as something even easier to relate with (a demi-god like Jesus, since Joseph only knew Catholocized Christianity).
I theorize that if a modern (less traditionally chauvinistic) person had the same revelation, they'd have seen 2 personages as a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.
Then again, if a Hindu had the revelation, it could've been a series of gods as well as Brahman.