DiscussMormonism.com

I forgot what your opinions about Native American using metal tablets remind me.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... se-of.html

Did you pray about it and get the Holy Ghost's confirmation that your cherry picked conclusions are true?

tapirrider wrote:Did you pray about it and get the Holy Ghost's confirmation that your cherry picked conclusions are true?

You don't need to pray about all the obvious links to the Book of Mormon. They stick out like sore thumbs.

lets see.... 200 year old, un corroborated, non expert testimony of plates no one has ever seen. Where have I heard this all before?

bomgeography wrote:

tapirrider wrote:Did you pray about it and get the Holy Ghost's confirmation that your cherry picked conclusions are true?

You don't need to pray about all the obvious links to the Book of Mormon. They stick out like sore thumbs.

Cherry picked conclusions do have a way of seeming to be obvious links to the Book of Mormon as long as you ignore anything that refutes your fantasy.

I find your statement "You don't need to pray" to be interesting. David McKane, it would seem that you are not relying on Moroni's promise as written in the Book of Mormon to confirm what is true. You seem to be cherry picking and arriving at conclusions that are at odds with other LDS members and in disagreement with the LDS essay on DNA, which was approved and endorsed by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Why should anyone take your so-called research seriously? What do you really have to offer to someone who wants truth? You once directed me to a group of whites who pretend to be Indians. What is true isn't important to you if it doesn't support your cherry picked conclusions.

bomgeography wrote:I forgot what your opinions about Native American using metal tablets remind me.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... se-of.html

I posted a similar message to this over at LDS Freedom Forum in response to what seems to be your message there too, although it appears that your moniker there is different.
I can empathize a lot with your desire to find evidence for the Book of Mormon.
I think that you are reliant on old reports, and this is a major problem, because you seem to not be distinguishing between the report itself and evidence.

Yes, it is true that the Holy Ghost is important and by it we can know the truth of all things, but in the realm of archaeology, where it is not the core of your testimony, you ought to rely on actual, tried and true, modern archaeology. If someone prays about your report, there is a possibility that they can gain something by it. But that is a religious thing entirely. Don't expect that anyone with a scientific mindset will find value in this. Its important for the Book of Mormon itself to have Spiritual confirmation. That is what is offered by the Lord to know of the book's authenticity, and the Lord is simply not offering clear and hard archaeological evidence for the book yet. The purpose of the book is to help those that are truly searching for truth to find it by faith and by belief, not by science. On the other hand, some old report of this that or the other artifact is less important than the Book of Mormon, and there is a tendency for people to want to sort of put stock in the arm of flesh in the reports so to speak, where there is a huge possibility that the person that made the report is questionable on some level, either by not being an archaeologist and being some farmer or whatever that has really no idea what they are talking about or doing, or what they are actually finding. In these early eras, there are a lot of problems in the reports and so as a rule, they ought not to be trusted as something that has actual weight for evidence. The old reports have a tendency to be unreliable on many levels, and this is where deception of false spirits can enter in, because of an intense desire to believe in some old report. This is different from the specific promise of the Holy Ghost regarding the Book of Mormon, because the old reports enter the realm of science, where there is a different set of rules than religious ones.

Scientifically and Methodologically speaking, there is a huge difference between what is reported, and the actual, hard evidence that one can see and touch and examine. At best, as I have always said for quite a long time now, a report like this, especially one from a very old time period as you have chosen, is not evidence of anything, but is a mere starting point for inquiry. One would have to track down the artifacts mentioned in the report either in some old museum collection, or in someone's attic for actual, modern-day archaeological scrutiny to take over. And *ONLY* once it has been vetted and cleared by these people by checking its provenance and actual tests done on the real artifacts, do you have any real evidence of anything.

This is the problem with all Heartlanders and North American theorists, is they have no evidence, only some old report that they expect people to take as evidence. Sorry, its not evidence. Its a clue for finding evidence at best, and entirely unreliable fairy-tales at worst.

You will find very few over here that are even believing LDS people like me, and most people here will not be an audience that takes you seriously and will not be likely to give you the respect you deserve. That said, however, there is a huge chasm between what you are presenting and actual evidence. I hope that you will move past the use of these kinds of things as evidence, and realize that they aren't convincing to anyone except people without any experience in these things. You may get some OOH's and AAH's from those kinds of people, but for even regular LDS people with more experience in these areas, your argumentation and quotations are not convincing because of your misuse of the reports as if they are actual evidence.

Why do I have these opinions? Because I have been bitten and been through the ringer in the past by trying to do what you are trying to, and by trying to use what you are trying to use. Take it from someone who has been there, and who knows the ultimate outcome of this kind of thing. Those that you want to reach will not ultimately be impressed very much.

I have this problem with Cumorah in New York, because I have a religious knowledge or belief of its reality, but I can't expect any of my scientifically-minded Mesoamericanist friends to take my belief in that seriously, because I have nothing to offer them but old reports of arrowheads and caves of plates, and old Indian legends about a perished race in the area. That isn't evidence. That is nice, suggestive reports. That's only something that someone that is willing to put stock into to come to a religious conclusion will find of value. Mormons that place no value on a spiritual knowledge of the New York Cumorah will opt for a different candidate for where the Nephites were destroyed.

EdGoble wrote:

bomgeography wrote:I forgot what your opinions about Native American using metal tablets remind me.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... se-of.html

I posted a similar message to this over at LDS Freedom Forum in response to what seems to be your message there too, although it appears that your moniker there is different.
I can empathize a lot with your desire to find evidence for the Book of Mormon.
I think that you are reliant on old reports, and this is a major problem, because you seem to not be distinguishing between the report itself and evidence.

Yes, it is true that the Holy Ghost is important and by it we can know the truth of all things, but in the realm of archaeology, where it is not the core of your testimony, you ought to rely on actual, tried and true, modern archaeology. If someone prays about your report, there is a possibility that they can gain something by it. But that is a religious thing entirely. Don't expect that anyone with a scientific mindset will find value in this. Its important for the Book of Mormon itself to have Spiritual confirmation. That is what is offered by the Lord to know of the book's authenticity, and the Lord is simply not offering clear and hard archaeological evidence for the book yet. The purpose of the book is to help those that are truly searching for truth to find it by faith and by belief, not by science. On the other hand, some old report of this that or the other artifact is less important than the Book of Mormon, and there is a tendency for people to want to sort of put stock in the arm of flesh in the reports so to speak, where there is a huge possibility that the person that made the report is questionable on some level, either by not being an archaeologist and being some farmer or whatever that has really no idea what they are talking about or doing, or what they are actually finding. In these early eras, there are a lot of problems in the reports and so as a rule, they ought not to be trusted as something that has actual weight for evidence. The old reports have a tendency to be unreliable on many levels, and this is where deception of false spirits can enter in, because of an intense desire to believe in some old report. This is different from the specific promise of the Holy Ghost regarding the Book of Mormon, because the old reports enter the realm of science, where there is a different set of rules than religious ones.

Scientifically and Methodologically speaking, there is a huge difference between what is reported, and the actual, hard evidence that one can see and touch and examine. At best, as I have always said for quite a long time now, a report like this, especially one from a very old time period as you have chosen, is not evidence of anything, but is a mere starting point for inquiry. One would have to track down the artifacts mentioned in the report either in some old museum collection, or in someone's attic for actual, modern-day archaeological scrutiny to take over. And *ONLY* once it has been vetted and cleared by these people by checking its provenance and actual tests done on the real artifacts, do you have any real evidence of anything.

This is the problem with all Heartlanders and North American theorists, is they have no evidence, only some old report that they expect people to take as evidence. Sorry, its not evidence. Its a clue for finding evidence at best, and entirely unreliable fairy-tales at worst.

You will find very few over here that are even believing LDS people like me, and most people here will not be an audience that takes you seriously and will not be likely to give you the respect you deserve. That said, however, there is a huge chasm between what you are presenting and actual evidence. I hope that you will move past the use of these kinds of things as evidence, and realize that they aren't convincing to anyone except people without any experience in these things. You may get some OOH's and AAH's from those kinds of people, but for even regular LDS people with more experience in these areas, your argumentation and quotations are not convincing because of your misuse of the reports as if they are actual evidence.

Why do I have these opinions? Because I have been bitten and been through the ringer in the past by trying to do what you are trying to, and by trying to use what you are trying to use. Take it from someone who has been there, and who knows the ultimate outcome of this kind of thing. Those that you want to reach will not ultimately be impressed very much.

I have this problem with Cumorah in New York, because I have a religious knowledge or belief of its reality, but I can't expect any of my scientifically-minded Mesoamericanist friends to take my belief in that seriously, because I have nothing to offer them but old reports of arrowheads and caves of plates, and old Indian legends about a perished race in the area. That isn't evidence. That is nice, suggestive reports. That's only something that someone that is willing to put stock into to come to a religious conclusion will find of value. Mormons that place no value on a spiritual knowledge of the New York Cumorah will opt for a different candidate for where the Nephites were destroyed.

Having a problem with Cumorah being in New York is like calling a tapir a horse.

Edgoble you are really misinformed. Its true no evidence exist in Meso America that relates to what is described in the Book of Mormon but when it comes to North America there are matching timelines, artifacts, dna, culture, and linguistics etc. See examples Also you may not like using historical documents but unless you lived over the last 1000 years that's what historians have to use. Unless you can prove that the observations made are inaccurate feel free otherwise you have no leg to stand on.

The problem with your meso American model is I can find more artifact cultural linguistic and dna evidence in North America in one day then you and others can in the last 60 years looking in meso America. Its time to move on.

Artifacts,

Breastplates jewelry

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... welry.html


clothing

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ttons.html

Jewish Hamsa Symbol

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ymbol.html

Meteoric iron axes tools

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... tools.html

Hopewell possible smelting

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... lting.html

Cultural and Linguistics

Native American Hebrew Like temples

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... mples.html

Lamanite use of red paint

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... d-war.html

Old world influences

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... mites.html


Native American reformed Egyptian

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... glyph.html

Native American ties to the Book of Mormon

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ormon.html

Christ visit to Mik Maq Indians

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... visit.html

Iroquois Lamanites

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... nites.html

DNA

DNA links
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... e-x2a.html

A Caucasian race of Indian
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... an_12.html

The extermination of a Caucasian race of Indian
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ce-of.html

bomgeography wrote:

EdGoble wrote:
I posted a similar message to this over at LDS Freedom Forum in response to what seems to be your message there too, although it appears that your moniker there is different.
I can empathize a lot with your desire to find evidence for the Book of Mormon.
I think that you are reliant on old reports, and this is a major problem, because you seem to not be distinguishing between the report itself and evidence.

Yes, it is true that the Holy Ghost is important and by it we can know the truth of all things, but in the realm of archaeology, where it is not the core of your testimony, you ought to rely on actual, tried and true, modern archaeology. If someone prays about your report, there is a possibility that they can gain something by it. But that is a religious thing entirely. Don't expect that anyone with a scientific mindset will find value in this. Its important for the Book of Mormon itself to have Spiritual confirmation. That is what is offered by the Lord to know of the book's authenticity, and the Lord is simply not offering clear and hard archaeological evidence for the book yet. The purpose of the book is to help those that are truly searching for truth to find it by faith and by belief, not by science. On the other hand, some old report of this that or the other artifact is less important than the Book of Mormon, and there is a tendency for people to want to sort of put stock in the arm of flesh in the reports so to speak, where there is a huge possibility that the person that made the report is questionable on some level, either by not being an archaeologist and being some farmer or whatever that has really no idea what they are talking about or doing, or what they are actually finding. In these early eras, there are a lot of problems in the reports and so as a rule, they ought not to be trusted as something that has actual weight for evidence. The old reports have a tendency to be unreliable on many levels, and this is where deception of false spirits can enter in, because of an intense desire to believe in some old report. This is different from the specific promise of the Holy Ghost regarding the Book of Mormon, because the old reports enter the realm of science, where there is a different set of rules than religious ones.

Scientifically and Methodologically speaking, there is a huge difference between what is reported, and the actual, hard evidence that one can see and touch and examine. At best, as I have always said for quite a long time now, a report like this, especially one from a very old time period as you have chosen, is not evidence of anything, but is a mere starting point for inquiry. One would have to track down the artifacts mentioned in the report either in some old museum collection, or in someone's attic for actual, modern-day archaeological scrutiny to take over. And *ONLY* once it has been vetted and cleared by these people by checking its provenance and actual tests done on the real artifacts, do you have any real evidence of anything.

This is the problem with all Heartlanders and North American theorists, is they have no evidence, only some old report that they expect people to take as evidence. Sorry, its not evidence. Its a clue for finding evidence at best, and entirely unreliable fairy-tales at worst.

You will find very few over here that are even believing LDS people like me, and most people here will not be an audience that takes you seriously and will not be likely to give you the respect you deserve. That said, however, there is a huge chasm between what you are presenting and actual evidence. I hope that you will move past the use of these kinds of things as evidence, and realize that they aren't convincing to anyone except people without any experience in these things. You may get some OOH's and AAH's from those kinds of people, but for even regular LDS people with more experience in these areas, your argumentation and quotations are not convincing because of your misuse of the reports as if they are actual evidence.

Why do I have these opinions? Because I have been bitten and been through the ringer in the past by trying to do what you are trying to, and by trying to use what you are trying to use. Take it from someone who has been there, and who knows the ultimate outcome of this kind of thing. Those that you want to reach will not ultimately be impressed very much.

I have this problem with Cumorah in New York, because I have a religious knowledge or belief of its reality, but I can't expect any of my scientifically-minded Mesoamericanist friends to take my belief in that seriously, because I have nothing to offer them but old reports of arrowheads and caves of plates, and old Indian legends about a perished race in the area. That isn't evidence. That is nice, suggestive reports. That's only something that someone that is willing to put stock into to come to a religious conclusion will find of value. Mormons that place no value on a spiritual knowledge of the New York Cumorah will opt for a different candidate for where the Nephites were destroyed.

Having a problem with Cumorah being in New York is like calling a tapir a horse.

Edgoble you are really misinformed. Its true no evidence exist in Meso America that relates to what is described in the Book of Mormon but when it comes to North America there are matching timelines, artifacts, dna, culture, and linguistics etc. See examples Also you may not like using historical documents but unless you lived over the last 1000 years that's what historians have to use. Unless you can prove that the observations made are inaccurate feel free otherwise you have no leg to stand on.

The problem with your meso American model is I can find more artifact cultural linguistic and dna evidence in North America in one day then you and others can in the last 60 years looking in meso America. Its time to move on.

Artifacts,

Breastplates jewelry

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... welry.html


clothing

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ttons.html

Jewish Hamsa Symbol

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ymbol.html

Meteoric iron axes tools

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... tools.html

Hopewell possible smelting

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... lting.html

Cultural and Linguistics

Native American Hebrew Like temples

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... mples.html

Lamanite use of red paint

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... d-war.html

Old world influences

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... mites.html


Native American reformed Egyptian

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... glyph.html

Native American ties to the Book of Mormon

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ormon.html

Christ visit to Mik Maq Indians

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... visit.html

Iroquois Lamanites

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... nites.html

DNA

DNA links
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... e-x2a.html

A Caucasian race of Indian
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... an_12.html

The extermination of a Caucasian race of Indian
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ce-of.html

Repetition of claims WITHOUT EVIDENCE is not only not convincing, you apparently think we are too stupid to realize that's what you're doing.

You won't do the research Ed has mentioned. You aren't doing archaeology or science. You're basically printing gossip, speculation and blatant lies on your site. You may impress those who are already primed with racism and other bigotries to credit your conclusions but you are not convincing anyone here. You're promoting racist pseudoscience and actually making Mormons look bad.

bomgeography wrote:
Having a problem with Cumorah being in New York is like calling a tapir a horse.

Edgoble you are really misinformed. Its true no evidence exist in Meso America that relates to what is described in the Book of Mormon but when it comes to North America there are matching timelines, artifacts, dna, culture, and linguistics etc. See examples Also you may not like using historical documents but unless you lived over the last 1000 years that's what historians have to use. Unless you can prove that the observations made are inaccurate feel free otherwise you have no leg to stand on.

The problem with your meso American model is I can find more artifact cultural linguistic and dna evidence in North America in one day then you and others can in the last 60 years looking in meso America. Its time to move on.

I can see from your response that you have no substance to your arguments and that you are not truly interested in logical reasoning or scrutiny of evidence to any degree at all. You are only interested in your list of 19th century artifacts without the artifacts. Why are you even here? Who do you think you are going to convince here?

Maksutov wrote:Repetition of claims WITHOUT EVIDENCE is not only not convincing, you apparently think we are too stupid to realize that's what you're doing.

You won't do the research Ed has mentioned. You aren't doing archaeology or science. You're basically printing gossip, speculation and blatant lies on your site. You may impress those who are already primed with racism and other bigotries to credit your conclusions but you are not convincing anyone here. You're promoting racist pseudoscience and actually making Mormons look bad.

WOW! Maksutov has my back!!

BOmGeography/Ripliancum, whatever your true name is. As Maksutov says, you are making the Mormons look bad. You are practicing bad apologetics, and when you do that, you are not a builder of Zion, but a stumbling block to it, and therefore, you are not on the Lord's errand ultimately, but are on the payroll of the adversary in the end analysis.