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I believe Lemmie deserves credit for referencing these materials and certainly others of you know of them. Here is BOMGeo's opportunity to address criticism point by point throughout this article. Better yet, he should formulate a response and send it to the source of the article and the parties involved. Or he can continue posting and avoiding answers because, beyond an expression of his emotional commitment to something or other, he has no answers.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... ternate_re

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History -

Conclusions:

In the past, many scholars have pointed to a sometimes explicitly racist agenda behind the claims of diffusionists who argue that the glories of Native American civilizations were achieved only through borrowing from various Old World groups. The producers of the Lost Civilizations of North America and the diffusionists they feature in their documentary turn this argument on its head by suggesting that it is instead those “mainstream” scholars who are the real racists because they deny Native Americans their role in an already globalized world of the early centuries of the Common Era. However, the only support for this picture of Native American–Old World interactions two thousand years ago comes from resurrected frauds and distorted history. There is no credible archaeological or genetic evidence to suggest that any Old World peoples migrated to the Americas after the initial incursion from Siberia prior to the tentative forays of the Norse beginning at around 1000 CE other than limited contacts between Siberia and the American arctic.



Disclaimer:
We are well aware that a claim underlying the Lost Civilizations documentary—that the mound-building people of the American Midwest were migrants from the Middle East 2,000 years ago—may be informed by religious doctrine. It is our position in this paper, however, that whatever inspires this claim is not nearly as important as the fact that it is plainly wrong. As such, we will leave it to others to assess the role played, if any, by religion in shaping Lost Civilizations and focus instead on scientific evidence relevant to that claim.

Maksutov wrote:I believe Lemmie deserves credit for referencing these materials and certainly others of you know of them. Here is BOMGeo's opportunity to address criticism point by point throughout this article. Better yet, he should formulate a response and send it to the source of the article and the parties involved. Or he can continue posting and avoiding answers because, beyond an expression of his emotional commitment to something or other, he has no answers.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... ternate_re

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History -

Conclusions:

In the past, many scholars have pointed to a sometimes explicitly racist agenda behind the claims of diffusionists who argue that the glories of Native American civilizations were achieved only through borrowing from various Old World groups. The producers of the Lost Civilizations of North America and the diffusionists they feature in their documentary turn this argument on its head by suggesting that it is instead those “mainstream” scholars who are the real racists because they deny Native Americans their role in an already globalized world of the early centuries of the Common Era. However, the only support for this picture of Native American–Old World interactions two thousand years ago comes from resurrected frauds and distorted history. There is no credible archaeological or genetic evidence to suggest that any Old World peoples migrated to the Americas after the initial incursion from Siberia prior to the tentative forays of the Norse beginning at around 1000 CE other than limited contacts between Siberia and the American arctic.



Disclaimer:
We are well aware that a claim underlying the Lost Civilizations documentary—that the mound-building people of the American Midwest were migrants from the Middle East 2,000 years ago—may be informed by religious doctrine. It is our position in this paper, however, that whatever inspires this claim is not nearly as important as the fact that it is plainly wrong. As such, we will leave it to others to assess the role played, if any, by religion in shaping Lost Civilizations and focus instead on scientific evidence relevant to that claim.

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)

Great post Maskutov but try and finding something that is accurate.

The dating is behind what it should be but I have no doubts that will get fixed

Maksutov wrote:I believe Lemmie deserves credit for referencing these materials and certainly others of you know of them. Here is BOMGeo's opportunity to address criticism point by point throughout this article. Better yet, he should formulate a response and send it to the source of the article and the parties involved. Or he can continue posting and avoiding answers because, beyond an expression of his emotional commitment to something or other, he has no answers.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... ternate_re

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History -

Conclusions:

In the past, many scholars have pointed to a sometimes explicitly racist agenda behind the claims of diffusionists who argue that the glories of Native American civilizations were achieved only through borrowing from various Old World groups. The producers of the Lost Civilizations of North America and the diffusionists they feature in their documentary turn this argument on its head by suggesting that it is instead those “mainstream” scholars who are the real racists because they deny Native Americans their role in an already globalized world of the early centuries of the Common Era. However, the only support for this picture of Native American–Old World interactions two thousand years ago comes from resurrected frauds and distorted history. There is no credible archaeological or genetic evidence to suggest that any Old World peoples migrated to the Americas after the initial incursion from Siberia prior to the tentative forays of the Norse beginning at around 1000 CE other than limited contacts between Siberia and the American arctic.



Disclaimer:
We are well aware that a claim underlying the Lost Civilizations documentary—that the mound-building people of the American Midwest were migrants from the Middle East 2,000 years ago—may be informed by religious doctrine. It is our position in this paper, however, that whatever inspires this claim is not nearly as important as the fact that it is plainly wrong. As such, we will leave it to others to assess the role played, if any, by religion in shaping Lost Civilizations and focus instead on scientific evidence relevant to that claim.

Here are two additional parts to the series. Part three addresses the DNA.

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Two: False Messages in Stone
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... _messages/

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Three: Real Messages in DNA
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... _messages/

bomgeography wrote:Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian peoples with ties to the Middle East and Europe
(National Geographic “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins”)

Great post Maskutov but try and finding something that is accurate.

The dating is behind what it should be but I have no doubts that will get fixed

From the article reviewed in the National Geographic link:

Upper Palaeolithic Siberian genome reveals dual ancestry of Native Americans:
[from the abstract]This suggests that populations related to contemporary western Eurasians had a more north-easterly distribution 24,000 years ago than commonly thought. Furthermore, we estimate that 14 to 38% of Native American ancestry may originate through gene flow from this ancient population. This is likely to have occurred after the divergence of Native American ancestors from east Asian ancestors, but before the diversification of Native American populations in the New World.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v5 ... 12736.html

Simon Southerton's comment:

The Raghavan study tells us that Siberians are mostly derived from people who migrated into Central Asia via a northern route that resulted in little admixture with Eastern Asian populations. The research paper is focused on very ancient migrations and tells us nothing about the likelihood or occurrence of recent Jewish migrations to the pre-Columbian New World. http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/201 ... rican.html

McKane, this article in no way supports your heartland Book of Mormon hypothesis.

Back to Maksutov's and tapirrider's posts:

Maksutov wrote:Here is BOMGeo's opportunity to address criticism point by point throughout this article. Better yet, he should formulate a response and send it to the source of the article and the parties involved. Or he can continue posting and avoiding answers because, beyond an expression of his emotional commitment to something or other, he has no answers.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... ternate_re

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History -

tapirrider wrote:Here are two additional parts to the series. Part three addresses the DNA.

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Two: False Messages in Stone
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... _messages/

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Three: Real Messages in DNA
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... _messages/

McKane, can you address the criticisms in the three articles of this series?

bomgeography wrote:
Great post Maskutov but try and finding something that is accurate.

The dating is behind what it should be but I have no doubts that will get fixed

So why don't you write a rebuttal? Because otherwise you stand thoroughly refuted. These are several qualified professionals up against a hobbyist: you. Of course you aren't going to take them on. But you continue to associate with frauds and even criminals because of the depth of your attachment to this racist view of early America.

Again, rebut it. Show the errors. Refute the professionals and specialists who have actually been to these places, studied these people, learned the languages. You can't.

Mak, Tapirrider, Lemmie, you also Themis..... I love you guys n gals! You are the bastions of rationality on threads like this.

I have addressed all these issues. The hopewell population stretched from the Gulf of Mexico to the Great Lakes. There trade extended into the Rocky Mountains and most likely to South America.
They built large structures that took millions of man hours. They made advanced metal weapons and tools and clothing. Their civilization was advanced as any other civilization of its time. It's fits the Book of Mormon in everyway.

As far as their DNA criticism i have addressed this to. The highest concentrations of X is in a non Jewish group of people in Israel called the Druze. Israel has the worlds largest concentration of X. They critics are saying that the largest group X is not Jewish. This fits the scriptural narrative perfectly. If you remember the northern tribe of Israel 10 tribes was taken over by the Assyrians and fell away from traditional Hebrew beliefs. Lehi is part of Manasseh. If Lehi was apart of the tribe of Judah that didn't fall away only two tribes of the twelve did not fall away then there would be a problem. But their criticism is based on a lack of understanding the scriptures. If they were familiar with it they would not bring up a criticism that supports the Bible and Book of Mormon.



Galilee Druze of Israel have the most genetic diversity of Haplo group x. It’s been proposed that this area in Israel is the place that Haplo Group x dispersed from. For those who believe in the historical narrative of the Bible and Book of Mormon the idea that Native American dna dispersed from Israel matches the scriptural narrative of the Bible and Book of Mormon. But the real question becomes why would the closest haplo group x genetic link to Native of Americans be in Iran?

The tribe of Manasseh which Lehi and Nephi are members of are invaded by the Assyrians and defeated and half of the tribe of Manasseh are deported.(2 Kings 17:6, 1Chronicles 5:26). In the final deportations of Manasseh, Sargon the II deports the northern tribes of Israel to the Assyrian empire which included Media known today as the northwest part of Iran. The Median tribes in 678BC made the first empire of Iran. With these deportations it’s also believed the dispersions of the lost ten tribes of Israel to the north begins.

2 Chronicles 30:1-11 explains that the Tribe of Manasseh was invited back to Jerusalem to worship back at the temple. 2 Kings 17:34 states that they no longer worshipped the God of Israel, influenced by the Assyrian culture and beliefs. Lehi ancestors very well could have been some of those invited back to Jerusalem and reconverted back to their ancestral hebrew beliefs. Those who rebelled against Nephi such as Laman, Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael probably reverted back to pagan beliefs of Assyrian origin when they arrived in the promise land.

In short their DNA criticism supports the Bible and Book of Mormon record.

bomgeography wrote:I have addressed all these issues.

no, you haven't.

The hopewell population stretched from the Gulf of Mexico to the Great Lakes. There trade extended into the Rocky Mountains and most likely to South America.
They built large structures that took millions of man hours. They made advanced metal weapons and tools and clothing. Their civilization was advanced as any other civilization of its time.

those are generic statements about Hopewell culture.

bomgeo wrote:It's fits the Book of Mormon in everyway.

Prove it.

bomgeo wrote:As far as their DNA criticism i have addressed this to.

No, you haven't.

The highest concentrations of X is in a non Jewish group of people in Israel called the Druze. Israel has the worlds largest concentration of X. They critics are saying that the largest group X is not Jewish. This fits the scriptural narrative perfectly. If you remember the northern tribe of Israel 10 tribes was taken over by the Assyrians and fell away from traditional Hebrew beliefs. Lehi is part of Manasseh. If Lehi was apart of the tribe of Judah that didn't fall away only two tribes of the twelve did not fall away then there would be a problem. But their criticism is based on a lack of understanding the scriptures. If they were familiar with it they would not bring up a criticism that supports the Bible and Book of Mormon.

Irrelevant statements.

Galilee Druze of Israel have the most genetic diversity of Haplo group x. It’s been proposed that this area in Israel is the place that Haplo Group x dispersed from. For those who believe in the historical narrative of the Bible and Book of Mormon the idea that Native American dna dispersed from Israel matches the scriptural narrative of the Bible and Book of Mormon. But the real question becomes why would the closest haplo group x genetic link to Native of Americans be in Iran?

You are wrong and it has been proven at least three times in this thread alone.

The tribe of Manasseh which Lehi and Nephi are members of are invaded by the Assyrians and defeated and half of the tribe of Manasseh are deported.(2 Kings 17:6, 1Chronicles 5:26). In the final deportations of Manasseh, Sargon the II deports the northern tribes of Israel to the Assyrian empire which included Media known today as the northwest part of Iran. The Median tribes in 678BC made the first empire of Iran. With these deportations it’s also believed the dispersions of the lost ten tribes of Israel to the north begins.

2 Chronicles 30:1-11 explains that the Tribe of Manasseh was invited back to Jerusalem to worship back at the temple. 2 Kings 17:34 states that they no longer worshipped the God of Israel, influenced by the Assyrian culture and beliefs. Lehi ancestors very well could have been some of those invited back to Jerusalem and reconverted back to their ancestral hebrew beliefs. Those who rebelled against Nephi such as Laman, Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael probably reverted back to pagan beliefs of Assyrian origin when they arrived in the promise land.

Another irrelevant statement.

In short their DNA criticism supports the Bible and Book of Mormon record.

That is a nonsensical statement. Can you rephrase?

Back to the OP questions, as contained in Maksutov's and tapirrider's posts:

Maksutov wrote:Here is BOMGeo's opportunity to address criticism point by point throughout this article. Better yet, he should formulate a response and send it to the source of the article and the parties involved. Or he can continue posting and avoiding answers because, beyond an expression of his emotional commitment to something or other, he has no answers.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... ternate_re

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History -

tapirrider wrote:Here are two additional parts to the series. Part three addresses the DNA.

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Two: False Messages in Stone
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... _messages/

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Three: Real Messages in DNA
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... _messages/

McKane, can you address the criticisms in the three articles of this series?

Lemmie wrote:Back to the OP questions, as contained in Maksutov's and tapirrider's posts:

Maksutov wrote:Here is BOMGeo's opportunity to address criticism point by point throughout this article. Better yet, he should formulate a response and send it to the source of the article and the parties involved. Or he can continue posting and avoiding answers because, beyond an expression of his emotional commitment to something or other, he has no answers.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... ternate_re

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History -

tapirrider wrote:Here are two additional parts to the series. Part three addresses the DNA.

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Two: False Messages in Stone
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... _messages/

Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Three: Real Messages in DNA
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizat ... _messages/

McKane, can you address the criticisms in the three articles of this series?

What points do you want me to address specifically. Because the one that matter have been addressed. As addressing the Michigan relics or artifacts that are considered fake don't matter. The hopewell civilization and the DNA is what matters.

These alone DNA and hopewell Native American traditions and hopewell artifacts (none are fake ) are what anybody needs to show the historicity of the Book of Mormon. They don't address a lot of the research I've been doing.

Israel does have the most genetic diversity of haplo group x and the largest concentrations of x that's why its been postulated that Israel is the place that x spread from.

Galilee Druze of Israel have the most genetic diversity of Haplo group x. It’s been proposed that this area in Israel is the place that Haplo Group x dispersed from. For those who believe in the historical narrative of the Bible and Book of Mormon the idea that Native American dna dispersed from Israel matches the scriptural narrative of the Bible and Book of Mormon. But the real question becomes why would the closest haplo group x genetic link to Native of Americans be in Iran?

You are wrong and it has been proven at least three times in this thread alone.

"The Druzes also have the greatest diversity of X lineages of any population, possessing X1a, X1c, X2b, X2e, X2f, X2h and X3 lineages."[u][/u]
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_X_mtDNA.shtml

I do not know what you are basing the idea that Israel is not the most diverse area for x but I would sure like to see a cfr.

"An attractive hypothesis to explain this geographic concentration of lineages which diverged remotely within an ancient haplogroup (and which are not identified in other populations of the region) is that these Galilee Druze individuals represent the refugium of an ancestral group with high diversity and high frequency of haplogroup X, which was more prevalent in the region in antiquity, and from which the global diversity of X mtDNA haplogroup emerged. "

"We found that 39 of 41 haplogroup X Druze individuals were from the Galilee heights (Table S2), corresponding to 21.4% (39/182) of the samples from that region. Enrichment analysis[22] revealed that both X1 and X2 were highly enriched in this region "

"One particularly exceptional example of both high diversity and high frequency of haplogroup X was the Galilee heights village of Peq'in, where 6 of 17 households (35.3%) belonged to four distinct lineages of haplogroup X (X1a, X1b, X2e and X2*), yielding a calculated genetic diversity for both X1 and X2 of 0.667±0.02. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2324201/

You will not find anywhere in the world except in north American native americans that have higher concentrations of x (they have the highest concentration of x2). Israel being the place that x emerged from is a perfect match. The radio carbon dating problem will eventually match the dna cultural artifact archeological and native American traditions, etc