DiscussMormonism.com

"the bow and arrow were adopted in the Ohio Valley between A.D. 300 and 400. During this period, large spear points were replaced by smaller arrowheads."
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... tures.html

Also see: Adoption of the Bow in Prehistoric North America, John H. Blitz, North American Archaeologist, Vol. 9(2), 1988
http://anthropology.United Airlines.edu/reprints/22.pdf

The bow and arrow wasn't in the geographies of Book of Mormon stories during Book of Mormon timelines, but the Book of Mormon says it was.

About 200–187 B.C.
Mosiah 9:
16 And it came to pass that I did arm them with bows, and with arrows...

About 187–160 B.C.
Mosiah 10:
8 And it came to pass that they came up upon the north of the land of Shilom, with their numerous hosts, men armed with bows, and with arrows..

About 87 B.C.
Alma 2:
12 ..they did arm themselves with swords, and with cimeters, and with bows, and with arrows...

About 87–86 B.C.
Alma 3:
5 ...and their bows, and their arrows...

about 91 B.C.
Alma 17:
7 ...and their bows, and their arrows...

About 74 B.C.
Alma 43:
20 ...their bows and their arrows...

About 52–50 B.C.
Helaman 1:
14 ...with bows, and with arrows...

About A.D. 385
Mormon 6:
9 ...with the bow, and with the arrow...

Bofmgeography, how do you explain the missing bow and arrow?

The usual archaeological arguments are that the bow and arrow reach Mexico fairly late. This arises primarily by dating the southward migration of the bow and arrow technology from the far north where one presumes the Inuit imported the technology either from Asia or possibly even Europe. So it's among the Inuit around 2000-1000 BCE and slowly works its way south until around 600 - 700 AD when it reaches the Mexico region.

The counter argument tends to depend upon the flint and obsidian heads and whether they were used by atlatls or bows. Unfortunately apologists tend to quote from pretty dated works arguing for bows. (I think the most recent is from the 1970's and ignores the general consensus that they were atlatls in the period before the post-classic era) That said there are some arguments to be had based upon the thickness of the rear of the tips that determines whether they were mounted on an atlatls, arrow, or spear. So far as I know there's not really strong evidence for pre-classical arrows although I suppose it's possible given that we only have tips and not the wood.

The other alternative is just that the word translated as bow or arrow refers to the atlatls and the Nephites adopted the words for bow and arrow to represent those terms in the Hebrew. The main problem with the solution is that some passages appear to be talking about the atlatls and gets translated as javelin. (See for example Alma 62:36) Also the main text for Nephite weaponry, Jarom 1:8, includes both bows and arrows as well as javelins and darts.

So while I expect there is an answer this is one of the places like certain metals where I don't think apologists have good answers at present.

This petroglyph (my own image) is of an anthropomorphic image of a person using an atlatl (throwing stick). It's dated between 1,000 and 1,500 years ago. The bow was only adopted in the US around 500 AD. These dates are NOT a good support for Book of Mormon histories.


There are mountains of evidence that disprove the Book of Mormon. There is zero evidence that supports it.

Thanks for the picture Quasimodo.

This is from a curriculum booklet for 4th to 6th graders, published by the National Park Service:

One surprising note about the Hopewell peoples is that they did not have bows and arrows. The link includes a good illustration of how the atlatl was thrown. The entire pamphlet is well worth reading.
https://archive.org/stream/peoplewhocam ... 6/mode/2up

tapirrider wrote:"the bow and arrow were adopted in the Ohio Valley between A.D. 300 and 400. During this period, large spear points were replaced by smaller arrowheads."
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... tures.html

Also see: Adoption of the Bow in Prehistoric North America, John H. Blitz, North American Archaeologist, Vol. 9(2), 1988
http://anthropology.United Airlines.edu/reprints/22.pdf

The bow and arrow wasn't in the geographies of Book of Mormon stories during Book of Mormon timelines, but the Book of Mormon says it was.

About 200–187 B.C.
Mosiah 9:
16 And it came to pass that I did arm them with bows, and with arrows...

About 187–160 B.C.
Mosiah 10:
8 And it came to pass that they came up upon the north of the land of Shilom, with their numerous hosts, men armed with bows, and with arrows..

About 87 B.C.
Alma 2:
12 ..they did arm themselves with swords, and with cimeters, and with bows, and with arrows...

About 87–86 B.C.
Alma 3:
5 ...and their bows, and their arrows...

about 91 B.C.
Alma 17:
7 ...and their bows, and their arrows...

About 74 B.C.
Alma 43:
20 ...their bows and their arrows...

About 52–50 B.C.
Helaman 1:
14 ...with bows, and with arrows...

About A.D. 385
Mormon 6:
9 ...with the bow, and with the arrow...

Bofmgeography, how do you explain the missing bow and arrow?

Book of Mormon lands are Mesoamerica.

Quasimodo wrote:This petroglyph (my own image) is of an anthropomorphic image of a person using an atlatl (throwing stick). It's dated between 1,000 and 1,500 years ago. The bow was only adopted in the US around 500 AD. These dates are NOT a good support for Book of Mormon histories.

Actually the northern Indians had it likely by at least 200 AD. The dating for the technology's adoption in Mexico is typically 600 AD - 700 AD. Still too late for the Book of Mormon but we should get the dates correct.

ClarkGoble wrote:

Quasimodo wrote:This petroglyph (my own image) is of an anthropomorphic image of a person using an atlatl (throwing stick). It's dated between 1,000 and 1,500 years ago. The bow was only adopted in the US around 500 AD. These dates are NOT a good support for Book of Mormon histories.

Actually the northern Indians had it likely by at least 200 AD. The dating for the technology's adoption in Mexico is typically 600 AD - 700 AD. Still too late for the Book of Mormon but we should get the dates correct.

Not in the area where that image comes from. In the hundreds of petroglyphs I've seen in the Mojave Desert, I have only seen bows depicted in one or two in an area that has petroglyphs from a later era. If Native Americans are Lamanites, shouldn't bows have been used uniformly all across the Americas?

Quasimodo wrote:Not in the area where that image comes from. In the hundreds of petroglyphs I've seen in the Mojave Desert, I have only seen bows depicted in one or two in an area that has petroglyphs from a later era. If Native Americans are Lamanites, shouldn't bows have been used uniformly all across the Americas?

I don't think uniformity would be necessary under the Book of Mormon model if the Lehites were a small group that assimilated into a larger population. The problem for apologists is, if they take the view that some of the obsidian heads are actually arrowheads, is why the technology didn't persist? There were of course benefits to the atlatls over the bow and arrow yet when the technology later arrived in mesoAmerica it was fairly strongly embraced. Even if there were military benefits to the atlatls over the bow, the bow seemed unambiguously better for hunting.

ClarkGoble wrote:

Quasimodo wrote:This petroglyph (my own image) is of an anthropomorphic image of a person using an atlatl (throwing stick). It's dated between 1,000 and 1,500 years ago. The bow was only adopted in the US around 500 AD. These dates are NOT a good support for Book of Mormon histories.

Actually the northern Indians had it likely by at least 200 AD. The dating for the technology's adoption in Mexico is typically 600 AD - 700 AD. Still too late for the Book of Mormon but we should get the dates correct.

200 AD is a little early. Check out the sources I linked to earlier, but even with a plus or minus 200 years, neither North America or Mesoamerica fall in any timeline for the Book of Mormon sources earlier than the time of Christ, even though the scripture sources I gave indicate that they should have had it, wherever in the Americas it was supposed to have happened. One of the evidences against the bow and arrow in that timeline, especially with the Hopewell, is not just the lack of arrow points but the type of injuries found in human remains. There is a definite evidence of bow and arrow injuries after the Hopewell culture declined, which corresponds with the archaeological record of arrow points. No arrow points and no bow and arrow injuries in the earlier Book of Mormon timeline. One could argue that toward the end of the Book of Mormon timeline the bow and arrow began showing up in the archaeological record but that just does not help. And the burial mounds also do not show massive numbers of human casualties in a short interval of time caused by bows and arrows in the 400 AD time period as should be expected if there was a massive war that caused the Hopewell culture to come to an end. It just isn't there. Bomgeography hasn't replied yet, maybe he won't.

What it really comes down to with the Book of Mormon is faith, which I don't have a problem with. It is the claims that aren't supported without cherry picking or misrepresenting that I don't like.

ClarkGoble wrote:

Quasimodo wrote:Not in the area where that image comes from. In the hundreds of petroglyphs I've seen in the Mojave Desert, I have only seen bows depicted in one or two in an area that has petroglyphs from a later era. If Native Americans are Lamanites, shouldn't bows have been used uniformly all across the Americas?

I don't think uniformity would be necessary under the Book of Mormon model if the Lehites were a small group that assimilated into a larger population. The problem for apologists is, if they take the view that some of the obsidian heads are actually arrowheads, is why the technology didn't persist? There were of course benefits to the atlatls over the bow and arrow yet when the technology later arrived in mesoAmerica it was fairly strongly embraced. Even if there were military benefits to the atlatls over the bow, the bow seemed unambiguously better for hunting.

So, your theory depends on a small group of Lamanites infusing into a large, existing population of Native Americans bringing their new bow technology with them? Just as an aside, I don't think a case can be made that atlatls were better military weapons than bows. Bows and arrows are much more accurate than atlatls. It's the difference between shooting a bullet from a gun and throwing a bullet from the end of a stick.

Back to your theory. I don't believe the Book of Mormon teaches that there was a large native population existent in the Americas before the Nephites arrived. The Jaredites were all but extinct when the Nephites arrived and no mention of "Indians" was made welcoming the Nephites in the Book of Mormon. Isn't it the official position of the LDS church that all Native Americans are descended from Lamanites?

Then, you have another problem. No bows in the Eastern US and no bows in Central and South America until much later than the peoples of Northern Canada and Alaska. This would only work if the Nephites landed in Alaska or The Yukon Territories.

There doesn't seem to be a good work-around for you. Can you offer one?