Book of Mormon Geography

[Shulem]

shulem, when reading your first comments about this river Laman I had no memory of it. All you hear about the journey is crossing eastward to Nahom.

I plead ignorant when it comes to church apologetics referencing Lehi’s Trail and generally avoid it. Their presentations are deceptive and misleading and they build their case and view everything through a lens that supports the conclusion the Church is true no matter what. I do not do that. I look at the evidence and view the facts as they are but knowing the Book of Mormon is only a faith promoting story that has no real proof or evidence whatsoever.

River Laman and the Valley of Lemuel at Wadi Tayyib al-Ism, about 75 miles south of the northern tip of the Red Sea, or about a three-day journey by camel.

*THAT* is a river?

Give me a break! Please do not insult my intelligence.

We are informed that Lehi and his family “pitched his tent in a valley by the side of a  river of water.” That became their base camp for a good long while until they finally “did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us and we did take seed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness, And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness across the river Laman.”

The river itself became a boundary line and a point which they could not cross without taking certain measures and steps in preparation for a river crossing. Here is a base list of what took place while on one side of the river prior to crossing to the other side and venturing on into the wilderness:

• he built an altar of stones, and made an offering

• he did confound them, that they durst not utter against him; wherefore, they did as he commanded them

• And my father dwelt in a tent

• the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brethren shall return to Jerusalem

• go unto the house of Laban, and seek the records, and bring them down hither into the wilderness

• took our journey in the wilderness, with our tents, to go up to the land of Jerusalem

• we took the plates of brass and the servant of Laban, and departed into the wilderness, and journeyed unto the tent of our father

• and did offer sacrifice and burnt offerings unto the Lord

• should again return unto the land of Jerusalem, and bring down Ishmael and his family into the wilderness

• go forth into the wilderness to go up to Jerusalem

• they took their journey with us down into the wilderness to the tent of our father

• they did offer sacrifice and burnt offerings

• And it came to pass that we had gathered together all manner of seeds of every kind

• while my father tarried in the wilderness he spake unto us, saying: Behold, I have dreamed

• And all these things did my father see, and hear, and speak, as he dwelt in a tent, in the valley of Lemuel

• Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the valley which he called Lemuel

• on the morrow he should take his journey into the wilderness

• in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round ball

• we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman

So many circumstances and happenings occurred between the family of Lehi and those who came down from Jerusalem to be with him while residing on one side of the river! Thus, the ever enduring river Laman was a boundary line which they did not cross until Lehi got his curious ball and gave the order to cross the river into the wilderness and beyond. All of this is indicative of a river of great proportion that separates two lands, one from the other, and if one is going to see and explore the vista on the other side then they must cross the river. But you will not get this from the lying eyes of the apologists and those at Interpreter who lie in wait to deceive while attempting to turn the imaginary Book of Mormon into reality.

Checkmate, the Interpreter loses.

[Shulem]

A slick & stupid presentation to woo believers into accepting the silly idea that river Laman in the Book of Mormon is plausible is presented by apologists who lie in wait to deceive:

Have the Valley of Lemuel and the River Laman Been Found?


But that is NOT a river! It is a wadi that forms like a raging creek when it rains and dries up and withers in the heat. And take a look how a man can cross that creek within a few hops while jumping stone to stone. That is not a river! It’s a creek or a stream at most! The Mormons are lying. That is what Mormons do, they lie constantly.




Behold the river they crossed after the magic ball appeared at the door of Lehi’s tent. But again, this is NOT a river! It is nothing more than a creek that flows on account of heavy rain. And just how hard would it be to cross this river stream? Bend, stoop, and jump! Even Daniel C. Peterson could do that in just a few hops! Look at Dan go! Hopping over the river Laman! Doctor Scratch, look at Dan hop!





You can’t fool Shulem!

1. What’s the king’s name in Facsimile No. 3?
2. How wide is the river Laman?

Checkmate, Dan. You loose.

[Shulem]

We are informed that Lehi and his family “pitched his tent in a valley by the side of a  river of water.” That became their base camp for a good long while until they finally “did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us and we did take seed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness, And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness across the river Laman.”

The river itself became a boundary line and a point which they could not cross without taking certain measures and steps in preparation for a river crossing.

Apologists will be quick to point out that nothing in the text is mentioned about how or by what means they crossed the river. Nonetheless, a river was crossed and all rivers have depth and distance from side to side. The story tells us that Lehi set camp on the side of a river and that became their habitation for a season until such time as they crossed the river and departed into the wilderness. The Book of Mormon is explicit in showing that the crossing of water is an undertaking and not just skipping from stone to stone in a shallow rapid or a stream as shown in the pictures produced by apologists. Crossing water is a serious undertaking and mechanical craft would be employed to accomplish it.

In Lehi’s vision of the tree of life there was a river and it ran along, and it was near the tree and this river acted as a boundary. Lehi said he was able to see the head or the source of the river and was able to cast his eyes round about and beheld on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building. Recall that Nephi’s brethren asked, “What meaneth the river of water which our father saw?” Nephi’s response serves as a key in defining how a river is a boundary in separating land with an ever flowing course of water running through it. Nephi said the river acted as a “gulf, which separated the wicked from the tree of life.” Needless to say that a gulf is extensive and far reaching!

Therefore, it’s entirely reasonable to equate the river Laman with the same kind of properties in showing that a river acts to separate land with a watery boundary (gulf) that requires special crossing in order to reach the other side. And what was on the other side of the river Laman? The answer is: The wilderness into which they departed. I’m afraid the desperate attempts of apologists to make a river out of a wadi is beyond the pale of reason and just goes to show how low they are willing to stoop in tying to make sense of Lehi’s trail through Arabia.

[Moksha]

*THAT* is a river?

Apologists have to work with the story they've been given. If they were to admit the story was fictional, they would be kicked out of the apologist guild.

[Shulem]

Jonathan Neville has all kinds of river problems when it comes to the Book of Mormon and his beloved Heartland model. Do you suppose he is getting closer to accepting the idea of the Book of Mormon being inspired fiction? I think he is having to take this into consideration considering how critical analysis has clearly shown how Book of Mormon geography is DOA.

The Heartland model cannot last much longer because the drum beat for Delmarva is just getting started and the call for inspired fiction is their last stand.

[huckelberry]

I had a bit of curiosity aroused by this . I sometimes enjoy google map journeys so checked it out. This river was dry except for a very short stretch inhabited by a trickle. Obviously when it rains the trickle would grow into something of a stream. It is fed by a fairly wide area with many contributing streams, well sand streams. One might consider if it was wetter Book of Mormon times. perhaps but the narrow canyons would have had only a small stream at best.

I was struck by two things perhaps more than the small amount of water. First this is a narrow steep walled canyon which would not be easy to access and offers little camping space. If you had livestock for food travel or sacrifice,,how would you get them there? The second is similar. The whole area around there is very rugged rock canyons and ridges. Travel through the area would be very slow and very difficult at best.

[Shulem]

I had a bit of curiosity aroused by this . I sometimes enjoy google map journeys so checked it out.

Behold:

• Google Earth: Wadi Tayyib Al Ism at 400 ft scale

• Google Earth: Middle East region at 100 mile scale

Here is the route at Book of Mormon Central which shows the total distance between Jerusalem and Tayyib al-Ism. The distance from Jerusalem to the northern tip of the Red Sea (Gulf of Aqaba) is about 200 miles and the final leg leading to Tayyib al-Ism is an additional 74 miles. Thus, the total distance from Jerusalem to Lehi’s camp situated at river Laman is a whopping 274 miles ONE WAY!

The story contains several red flags!

You will recall the first journey involved Lehi and his family making their way southward to the borders of the Red Sea until they reached the river Laman where they set up their first permanent camp. But then Lehi sent his sons back twice on two separate missions:

1. Acquire the brass plates from Laban
2. Pick up and bring back Ishmael and his family

They had found Wadi Tayyib al-Ism, a narrow valley 74 miles south of Aqaba, along the Arabian coastline.

how would you get them there? The second is similar. The whole area around there is very rugged rock canyons and ridges. Travel through the area would be very slow and very difficult at best.

ANSWER:

Imagine.



More to come...

[Shulem]

A wadi is not a river.

The wadi is a rain event. Water flows on account of the rain coming down from the canyons. But the flow of water slows to a trickle and becomes little more than a puddle after the rain ceases and the dry season sets in.

During the dry season, professor Daniel C. Peterson could skip across this so-called river while blindfolded and hopping on one foot!

[Shulem]

Today, few would call the small stream a river, but it may have been more like a river in Lehi’s day. Some accounts from antiquity suggest that northwest Arabia was wetter anciently, and the stream has been severely reduced in recent years as its water has been reallocated to more populated areas. In any case, the Hebrew term nahar actually means “perpetual course of water” and was applied to both rivers and streams.

This apologetic is coming from the same people who fool their readers into believing that a king’s name in the writing of Facsimile No. 3 is justified in a scholarly sense. Book of Mormon Central cannot be trusted to represent anything in full disclosure having an unbiased filter in which to view the entire scenario. The credibility of this website and its scholars is shot. I don’t mean to sound overly rude but I don’t trust Mormon apologists any further than I could throw them across their imaginary river! They are liars!

RIV'ER, noun [Latin rivus, rivulus, rips.]

1. A large stream of water flowing in a channel on land towards the ocean, a lake or another river It is larger than a rivulet or brook; but is applied to any stream from the size of a mill-stream to that of the Danube, Maranon and Mississippi. We give this name to large streams which admit the tide and mingle salt water with fresh, as the rivers Hudson, Delaware and St. Lawrence.

2. A large stream; copious flow; abundance; as rivers of blood; rivers of oil

I think it entirely safe to say that the real author of the Book of Mormon assumed that Lehi and his family enjoyed the bounty of the river in which they depended on for sustenance. Lehi & Sariah were left alone for weeks at a time while their sons returned on two separate occasions to Jerusalem in which to get the plates and bring back Ishmael. Everyone reading the book will simply assume they fished from the river and took advantage of the bounty therefrom.

But let’s not fool ourselves Rain water coming down from the cliffs of mountains of rock is not a living river or stream in which fish will live. The river of Laman was a dead stream of temporary rain water and when it was done flowing it dried up. How hardly a river of life!

[Shulem]

I was struck by two things perhaps more than the small amount of water. First this is a narrow steep walled canyon which would not be easy to access and offers little camping space. If you had livestock for food travel or sacrifice,,how would you get them there? The second is similar. The whole area around there is very rugged rock canyons and ridges. Travel through the area would be very slow and very difficult at best.

Huck,

Apologists take pride in likening the canyons to the valley of Lemuel, if you can believe it. They pin their hopes on the idea there was an actual river or permanent large stream of water in ancient times that coursed through the canyons -- teeming with life. That is their wishful thinking based on faith that the book is not fiction.

Indeed, how did they get there? What mode of transport did they have to carry their “provisions” to include tents made of fabric and poles to form a house-like structure complete with a “tent door” in which Lehi found his magic ball? The weight of their provisions must have required pack animals when they departed Jerusalem and traveled through the desert. And how they fed and watered those animals is a mystery let along how they traversed and made their way through treacherous cliffs made of stone. Recall when Lehi first entered the valley he was thankful so he built an altar of stones and made an offering to the Lord. What did he sacrifice? What animal? Was it a beast they had been carrying all that time from Jerusalem or did they find a miraculous ram in the thicket?

Give me a break. The story reeks with fiction!