God was Sorry

[Valo]

Good observation as far as the gold plates. Where are they? Of course we have the story that they were taken by Moroni. But fact is they are not available to us. The Book of Mormon makes no claims as far as where it took place, etc.

There is ample evidence to indicate that in the early days of the LDS Church lots of stories and events were tall tales, fabrications, or molested truth to make the events seem more than what they were.

When we look at physical evidence, of the claims made by the book itself, it doesn't give us a name of a place we can recognize as the Americas.

Another thing that I posted earlier but it was ignores is the connection between the British Isle and the Book of Mormon. The holy grail legends etc. are very much aligned with the symbolism and ideas discussed in Ether about a vessel to cross the great deep.

Absolutely follow you on this. The danger here though is that are we adjusting the story to explain the problems away? To make it somehow still work?

I saw your mention of the UK possibly being the land but I don't have enough understanding to respond. I would have to study the Book of Mormon and research it to be able to respond to that idea. Perhaps there are people more knowledgeable than might be able to answer that. I don't see a problem in considering the possibility that America wasn't the promised land, it was just where the plates ended up. My personal problem is that I do not believe the plates existed. And so it's all defunct. It's a pointless argument. You could say Joseph Smith was inspired by God to write the Book of Mormon and so it's still the works of God just brought to us through inspiration rather than direct translation.

But then why talk about plates? Why hide the plates but not hide other documentation translated by Joseph Smith? I would need a better explanation as to why we aren't able to see the plates.

Because they didn't exist as stated. It's messy and there are people who have done lots of research to show the evidence. Of course everyone has to come to their own conclusions. (8.38K subscribers) )

The Backyard Professor has done some good research on this I think. I can find you some resources if interested.

[Valo]

You could say Joseph Smith was inspired by God to write the Book of Mormon and so it's still the works of God just brought to us through inspiration rather than direct translation.

That's probably about right. I adore the Book of Mormon and believe it to be a true book that contains the words of God and it does truly speak of a people that were real, however, "...things are not as they seem".

[Dr. Shades]

Consistency and coherence are irrelevant to you?

Weird that you didn't quote me. Almost like you're scared!

Scared?? Umm, no. My response was directly after yours, so that plus the context made it clear to whom I was responding.

That the primary events of the Book of Mormon took place in the Americas is an assumption. It is not in the texts. It is an addition given by later interpretations. It's only in the chapter headings that say "America". The Book of Mormon never mentions "America".

So when the Angel Moroni told Joseph Smith that there is a record deposited, that contains a history of the people of "this continent," to which continent was he referring?

So it's not an established fact that the Book of Mormon events primarily take place in the Americas. It's an established tradition. But not factual.

Where can we find the Lamanites?

[Imwashingmypirate]

You could say Joseph Smith was inspired by God to write the Book of Mormon and so it's still the works of God just brought to us through inspiration rather than direct translation.

That's probably about right. I adore the Book of Mormon and believe it to be a true book that contains the words of God and it does truly speak of a people that were real, however, "...things are not as they seem".

Books of wars and rumours of wars.

It is possible to look at everything in this light. But how do we know it's right. I once had a dream. I saw dark blue and in the centre was the universe and it was as I thought but upside down. And I had a panic. I thought it's all true but wrong. It's back to front and upside down and in the dream it made sense. And I felt heartbroken that we have been shown everything wrong. When I woke it lost all meaning and it became just another weird dream in my filing cabinet of weird dreams lol. How do we know that it isn't all back to front. My mum once said she doesn't pray because she doesn't know who she is praying to and I said that I think as long as you pray in your heart to goodness it doesn't matter. But I can understand her dilemma. The older I get the harder I find it to be in touch with these things. Maybe that's the cynicism leaking from all they grey hairs I am developing .

[bill4long]

My mum once said she doesn't pray because she doesn't know who she is praying to

It could be to these guys



Or these (Childhood's End) guys

[Valo]

Weird that you didn't quote me. Almost like you're scared!

Scared?? Umm, no. My response was directly after yours, so that plus the context made it clear to whom I was responding.

That the primary events of the Book of Mormon took place in the Americas is an assumption. It is not in the texts. It is an addition given by later interpretations. It's only in the chapter headings that say "America". The Book of Mormon never mentions "America".

So when the Angel Moroni told Joseph Smith that there is a record deposited, that contains a history of the people of "this continent," to which continent was he referring?

So it's not an established fact that the Book of Mormon events primarily take place in the Americas. It's an established tradition. But not factual.

Where can we find the Lamanites?

Your question begs the question, where is the record? Where is the angel?

We are trying to establish facts, not religious traditions, which I agree are established and there is no debate.

But in truth, not in opinion, or in belief, but in truth the said record or plates is nowhere to be found.

And yet, for me, the contents of the Book of Mormon, which is claimed to have come from the non-existent gold plates found in America, etc. are somehow true. It's a conundrum and although I may not have the exact answers, I definitely am not required by virtue of reason or logic to accept that it's an established fact that the account in the Book of Mormon occurred in the Americas. Truth is that nobody has to accept its an established fact that the golden plates are real either. It's going to be your opinion, really, one way or the other.

I think there is room to explore other theories besides the narrative told by the Church. The Church has a proven track record of hiding, manipulating, changing, and covering up history so there is ample good reasons to question their narrative and to seek an alternative explanation while still not abandoning the Book of Mormon altogether.

[Valo]

That's probably about right. I adore the Book of Mormon and believe it to be a true book that contains the words of God and it does truly speak of a people that were real, however, "...things are not as they seem".

Books of wars and rumours of wars.

It is possible to look at everything in this light. But how do we know it's right. I once had a dream. I saw dark blue and in the centre was the universe and it was as I thought but upside down. And I had a panic. I thought it's all true but wrong. It's back to front and upside down and in the dream it made sense. And I felt heartbroken that we have been shown everything wrong. When I woke it lost all meaning and it became just another weird dream in my filing cabinet of weird dreams lol. How do we know that it isn't all back to front. My mum once said she doesn't pray because she doesn't know who she is praying to and I said that I think as long as you pray in your heart to goodness it doesn't matter. But I can understand her dilemma. The older I get the harder I find it to be in touch with these things. Maybe that's the cynicism leaking from all they grey hairs I am developing.

I think your dream suggests something real and is profound.

The mystery of iniquity is how we are currently being deceived. The antichrist spirit is the flip of the Christ Spirit.

I have an idea of what the mystery of iniquity is, but I haven't gotten a full picture yet, so to speak. Your dream fits along with what I have been thinking. Essentially the idea that this Universe is trapped inside a Blackhole. But anyway...

Cool dream! Thanks for sharing it!

[Imwashingmypirate]

My mum once said she doesn't pray because she doesn't know who she is praying to

It could be to these guys



Or these (Childhood's End) guys

Creepy.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Books of wars and rumours of wars.

It is possible to look at everything in this light. But how do we know it's right. I once had a dream. I saw dark blue and in the centre was the universe and it was as I thought but upside down. And I had a panic. I thought it's all true but wrong. It's back to front and upside down and in the dream it made sense. And I felt heartbroken that we have been shown everything wrong. When I woke it lost all meaning and it became just another weird dream in my filing cabinet of weird dreams lol. How do we know that it isn't all back to front. My mum once said she doesn't pray because she doesn't know who she is praying to and I said that I think as long as you pray in your heart to goodness it doesn't matter. But I can understand her dilemma. The older I get the harder I find it to be in touch with these things. Maybe that's the cynicism leaking from all they grey hairs I am developing.

I think your dream suggests something real and is profound.

The mystery of iniquity is how we are currently being deceived. The antichrist spirit is the flip of the Christ Spirit.

I have an idea of what the mystery of iniquity is, but I haven't gotten a full picture yet, so to speak. Your dream fits along with what I have been thinking. Essentially the idea that this Universe is trapped inside a Blackhole. But anyway...

Cool dream! Thanks for sharing it!

I don't want to think too deeply. Last time I went deep, I got terrified and irrational.

When I was a child I had a theory. I visualised that the big bang was related to what happens inside a black hole and that there are multiple multiverses in different time spaces that are all expanding. Like a black hole fills up with potential and then explodes into a different space away from the original. And then expansion occurs but because EM fields are stretching there will come a time when the wavelength is so long that there won't be any further that the energy can stretch that I wonder if it might spring back like an elastic band but I think now it's more likely that space time will just slow down so much that it still continues to expand but infinitely slower.

I also wondered if space was like a donut and the big bang started in the donut hole and that everything will loop back around to the centre where the density will be so much that everything will be destroyed and perhaps reborn.

I think I was about 13 when I was thinking these things.

[bill4long]

I also wondered if space was like a donut and the big bang started in the donut hole...

The idea has merit in my mind. I came to the conclusion long ago that life is all about the holes.