33 years with new questions

[NeuesLicht83]

Yeah, that’s not clear, apologies. I mean the growth from when the church began till now. The membership, buildings, temples, relationships in the world, etc. you look at other denominations like the Community of Christ and others, and they did not grow like the LDS Church. Just curious on others thoughts about that.

I suppose my thinking for a long time was that how far the Church has come shows the legitimacy.

If growth and longevity were evidence of legitimacy, why wouldn’t you be Catholic? Or Muslim?

It’s perfectly natural for you to have equated the Church’s growth over time with legitimacy because that’s what the Church and other members have been telling you for over 30 years. The Church itself supports this fallacious argument by counting membership in a way that it knows significantly exaggerates the number of people who consider themselves LDS. Just compare the numbers of people who identify their religion as LDS in surveys or census reports with the Church’s reported totals. If you’ve never done that, you’re in for a shock.

The last time I checked, both the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the 7th Day Adventists were growing faster than the LDS Church, and their reported totals are much more representative of active members than the LDS Church’s.

For a while now, the number of people who convert to Mormonism in the US has been roughly the same as the number who leave Mormonism. In other words, the missionary effort in the US is completely offset by members who leave the church. And the retention of members is much worse in many other countries.

Here’s the question most Mormons don’t think to ask: if the LDS church is true, why does it have such an abysmal rate of member retention?

Yes, completely agree with that question and really appreciate these thoughts…I’ve got some thinking and research to do.

[Imwashingmypirate]

I think religions prosper because humans in general are conditioned to need to be told how to live and what to do. We need kings, leaders, deity, rules, programming.

We are all conditioned in some way or another and that social condition through generations makes us pre primed to be brought into things like churches, societies, cults... Whatever. Something about the church suits something inside us. I often think about going to the LDS church just because every now and then I think it will be a good idea.

Also you get a lot of energy directed your way if you are an investigator or are in the group of people being fellowshipped. It feels safe to be wrapped and pulled into a family that all appear to and even tell you they love you. I've had members stick hearts to my door with lots of affirmations. They make you feel special. Not sure how it is for men and grown women. But as a young woman and YSA they make you feel loved. But I saw how easy that changes when you don't quite fit. It wasn't me that was rejected it was another person. A person who converted loads of people. She was a convert and she basically became a missionary in the way she acted. She invited loads of people. In our ward we had a bout of people being baptised every week. It went on and on for months. Not all brought in by her but she made sure to be there. Like a mamma. She was there for us long term members too. But her son did something wrong. And everyone shunned her. And to be honest... Knowing her son and hearing the situation, I think they were too harsh on him but he broke the law so he went to prison (at age 15).

But my problem was that they literally disfellowshipped the whole family. They gossiped in front of her. Whispering. You could practically touch the energy. She left the church. It wasn't her fault. And they should have supported her. She needed them more than ever. And the shut her out. And it disgusted me. And this is when I disconnected more completely. I already questioned and I already didn't believe but I enjoyed the friends and the structure and just having things to do. I learned that the fellowship isn't real.

[huckelberry]

I’m not sure what you mean by “like this.”

Yeah, that’s not clear, apologies. I mean the growth from when the church began till now. The membership, buildings, temples, relationships in the world, etc. you look at other denominations like the Community of Christ and others, and they did not grow like the LDS Church. Just curious on others thoughts about that.

I suppose my thinking for a long time was that how far the Church has come shows the legitimacy.

NeueLicht83, the time the LDS church started was a fertile time for church growth. It would make sense to look at general social conditions favoring that growth at that time. Seventh Day Adventists would be a good parallel. It started in the same general area and time as LDS. The US frontier area, referred to as "the burnt over district," was a mix of a lot of excitement.

From wikipedia:

In 2006, over 25 million people worshiped weekly in Seventh-day Adventist churches around the world.[98] In 2011, it was reported that the Seventh-day Adventist Church was the fastest-growing church in the United States. Released data showed the membership growing by 2.5% in North America, a rapid clip for that part of the world, where many Christian denominations are declining.

I think if one is looking at reasons to question the LDS claims it makes sense not to leave out considerations of positive aspects which have attracted people. With that are the observations that it proposes claims which people may find desirable enough to have strong hopes that it is true.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Newlight... Is the 83 your birth year?

[NeuesLicht83]

Newlight... Is the 83 your birth year?

You got it! And I’m sure you can guess the German comes from the mission field.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Newlight... Is the 83 your birth year?

You got it! And I’m sure you can guess the German comes from the mission field.

Nice. I know someone who did their mission in Germany. Don't know anything about it. But he seemed to enjoy it.

Edit: actually I didn't know that was where the German came from. I just wondered if you were German.

[Physics Guy]

"NeueLicht" is hard to read because Licht is a neuter noun. You can have das neue Licht or you can have neues Licht. I don't think a native German speaker would pick that name.

Maybe they would, for some reason I don't know. I don't have native-speaker instincts about German genders. I have the instincts of someone who has painfully learned them, and still often gets them wrong. "NeueLicht" sounds to me like the kind of mistake I still often make.

[NeuesLicht83]

"NeueLicht" is hard to read because Licht is a neuter noun. You can have das neue Licht or you can have neues Licht. I don't think a native German speaker would pick that name.

Maybe they would, for some reason I don't know. I don't have native-speaker instincts about German genders. I have the instincts of someone who has painfully learned them, and still often gets them wrong. "NeueLicht" sounds to me like the kind of mistake I still often make.

You’re totally right! Let’s see if I can fix that…

[Dr. Shades]

1. President Nelson and others seem genuine, and at such an advanced age, what real benefit do these men receive if it’s not real?

Res Ipsa already answered this question, but I'll add that they don't have much of a choice. If they come out and declare it's all B.S., they'll have the mass suicides of millions of active members on their consciences.

2. Has there been work done to see if there are similarities between the Book of Mormon wars and the American Revolutionary War? Wondering if Joseph Smith got ideas from those battles.

Yes, but it's been determined by at least one researcher that it's mostly the language and sentence structure that Joseph Smith ripped off from the book "The Late War," not specific battles.

4. Why would Joseph Smith (like Elder Holland once mentioned) go to his grave over this if it wasn’t real?

That's just it: He didn't go to his grave over it. He went to his grave over destroying a printing press, not his religion.

What was the real benefit he received?

Money, adoration from his followers, political power, and sex with multiple women. That's a Hell of a "real benefit," wouldn't you agree?

He suffered a lot.

The only suffering he underwent is what he brought on himself. Had he always obeyed the law and not been addicted to doing so many pathologically boneheaded things, he wouldn't have suffered at all.

Perhaps I’m still naïve and obviously haven’t been able to fully let go of things, but how could a church like this grow to this magnitude that it is today?

Easy. Brigham Young had the foresight to isolate his followers hundreds of miles away from any competing ideas, so a multi-generational cadre arose with no outside ideas to influence them away from what he taught. Regardless, any church that collects 10% of its members' income for 150+ years can't possibly NOT grow to this magnitude that it is today, wouldn't you say?

[Gadianton]

Hi All, I’m new and after watching RFM and John, I’m ready to engage and get some real answers. I’m hoping to get some real perspective from those of you that have been on this path for true understanding in life. I thought I would list some of my biggest thoughts recently…

1. President Nelson and others seem genuine, and at such an advanced age, what real benefit do these men receive if it’s not real?

2. Has there been work done to see if there are similarities between the Book of Mormon wars and the American Revolutionary War? Wondering if Joseph Smith got ideas from those battles.

3. Why am I more fearful of missing out of eternal blessings if I question things or depart in any way?

4. Why would Joseph Smith (like Elder Holland once mentioned) go to his grave over this if it wasn’t real? What was the real benefit he received? He suffered a lot.

Really appreciate your thoughts, perspective, or links to interviews and videos that can help without extra bias.

welcome to the board Neue and thanks for the questions.

1. I'll have to come back to that one, there's a lot to say.

2. I would read this thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=131734

3. It's a good question. If it's the obvious truth, why worry about questioning it? In fact, questioning it will only make belief stronger.

4. it's a near repeat story of endless new religious movements with a Charismatic leader who goes off the deep end, and winds up in conflict with the broader world, only to be destroyed. Why did Marshall Applewhite of Heaven's Gate stay true to the bitter -- what was the benefit to him? How about Jim Jones? How about David Koresh?

There have been a slew of Netflix documentaries coming out about NRMs including the aforementioned two that are pretty good.