33 years with new questions

[NeuesLicht83]

Hi All, I’m new and after watching RFM and John, I’m ready to engage and get some real answers. I’m hoping to get some real perspective from those of you that have been on this path for true understanding in life. I thought I would list some of my biggest thoughts recently…

1. President Nelson and others seem genuine, and at such an advanced age, what real benefit do these men receive if it’s not real?

2. Has there been work done to see if there are similarities between the Book of Mormon wars and the American Revolutionary War? Wondering if Joseph Smith got ideas from those battles.

3. Why am I more fearful of missing out of eternal blessings if I question things or depart in any way?

4. Why would Joseph Smith (like Elder Holland once mentioned) go to his grave over this if it wasn’t real? What was the real benefit he received? He suffered a lot.

Really appreciate your thoughts, perspective, or links to interviews and videos that can help without extra bias.

[Moksha]

1. President Nelson and others seem genuine, and at such an advanced age, what real benefit do these men receive if it’s not real?

Adulation, obedience, a chauffeur, and the best room at the IHC Medical Center.

4. Why would Joseph Smith (like Elder Holland once mentioned) go to his grave over this if it wasn’t real? What was the real benefit he received? He suffered a lot.

When Joseph Smith ordered the Nauvoo Expositor printing press to be destroyed, he had no idea of the consequences. He was still young and healthy and enjoyed a life of libertine indulgences.

Welcome to the Celestial Forum!

[yellowstone123]

Hi All, I’m new and after watching RFM and John, I’m ready to engage and get some real answers. I’m hoping to get some real perspective from those of you that have been on this path for true understanding in life. I thought I would list some of my biggest thoughts recently…

1. President Nelson and others seem genuine, and at such an advanced age, what real benefit do these men receive if it’s not real?

2. Has there been work done to see if there are similarities between the Book of Mormon wars and the American Revolutionary War? Wondering if Joseph Smith got ideas from those battles.

3. Why am I more fearful of missing out of eternal blessings if I question things or depart in any way?

4. Why would Joseph Smith (like Elder Holland once mentioned) go to his grave over this if it wasn’t real? What was the real benefit he received? He suffered a lot.

Really appreciate your thoughts, perspective, or links to interviews and videos that can help without extra bias.

As to the Book of Mormon, Joseph did read and study the Bible and was an exhorter in the Methodist church; the Torah appears to have fascinated him and he knew it well so actions of the people in those books appear in his later thought and writings; some parts of the Book of Mormon appear to be direct quotes from the Bible of his time, errors and all ; the war of 1812; issues with the recent Irish immigrants building the Erie Canal who brought the Roman Catholic Church into his presence and the controversy of that; anti-mason party as his brother Hyrum was a Mason and Joseph would reportedly say "beware of the masons" ; the Revolutionary War; his fondness for and putting a high value for digging for treasure , and it was slippery treasure that had a guardian spirit when not found which is echoed in the Book of Mormon. Remove all the And it came to pass, Therefore, Yea and similar phrases and there would be little left. I'm sure Microsoft Word would suggest removing them.

DCP wrote about Brigham Young: "He was, as we all are — even the prophets among us — a man of his time and culture and background." One can say that the Book of Mormon came out of Joseph Smith's time, culture and background.

[Imwashingmypirate]

3. Why am I more fearful of missing out of eternal blessings if I question things or depart in any way?

Maybe you've been taught that questioning is wrong or bad?

I was the biggest questioner in the ward. And everyone knew it. But I wasn't raised in the same way as others in the ward. My parents converted when I was young but they weren't TBMs. They knew it wasn't true. My mum did it thinking it would make my dad nicer. But we grew up being taught to question. When my dad wasn't around we would sit around the fire having debates and discussions about all sorts, philosophy, religion, the universe, magic, the paranormal, you name it. So, questioning was/is who I am. My dad would come in and we'd scatter like mice in different directions lol. There were times where leaders tried to suppress that and tried to make me feel like I was doing something wrong. But it never really sat right with me.

So I guess it's probably just how you've been taught. They say, to try it and then pray for the spirit to confirm it but in reality, I'm not sure they like much beyond that. And if the spirit doesn't confirm it then you aren't righteous enough to receive an answer or feel the spirit lol.

[NeuesLicht83]

3. Why am I more fearful of missing out of eternal blessings if I question things or depart in any way?

Maybe you've been taught that questioning is wrong or bad?

I was the biggest questioner in the ward. And everyone knew it. But I wasn't raised in the same way as others in the ward. My parents converted when I was young but they weren't TBMs. They knew it wasn't true. My mum did it thinking it would make my dad nicer. But we grew up being taught to question. When my dad wasn't around we would sit around the fire having debates and discussions about all sorts, philosophy, religion, the universe, magic, the paranormal, you name it. So, questioning was/is who I am. My dad would come in and we'd scatter like mice in different directions lol. There were times where leaders tried to suppress that and tried to make me feel like I was doing something wrong. But it never really sat right with me.

So I guess it's probably just how you've been taught. They say, to try it and then pray for the spirit to confirm it but in reality, I'm not sure they like much beyond that. And if the spirit doesn't confirm it then you aren't righteous enough to receive an answer or feel the spirit lol.

Yeah, that's exactly right. I've struggled to feel the Spirit for a long time, and I really don't want to hear, you have to read more/pray more...that's not helpful. My wife and I teach our kids to ask questions, but I also grew up in a time where it really felt like you couldn't ask, that you had to just accept. Now, I feel like there has been a lot of blind faith and why would I just accept that?

[Res Ipsa]

Hi All, I’m new and after watching RFM and John, I’m ready to engage and get some real answers. I’m hoping to get some real perspective from those of you that have been on this path for true understanding in life. I thought I would list some of my biggest thoughts recently…

1. President Nelson and others seem genuine, and at such an advanced age, what real benefit do these men receive if it’s not real?

The same things leaders of and participants of mass movements get: power, recognition, respect (bordering on worship), special knowledge, participation in something that transcends this life. It doesn’t matter if it is real — all that matters is their belief it is real.

2. Has there been work done to see if there are similarities between the Book of Mormon wars and the American Revolutionary War? Wondering if Joseph Smith got ideas from those battles.

There are folks here that know way more than I do on historical topics.

3. Why am I more fearful of missing out of eternal blessings if I question things or depart in any way?

Thirty-plus years of conditioning.

4. Why would Joseph Smith (like Elder Holland once mentioned) go to his grave over this if it wasn’t real? What was the real benefit he received? He suffered a lot.

Same reasons as any cult founder: power, respect/worship, sex, fame, notoriety.

Really appreciate your thoughts, perspective, or links to interviews and videos that can help without extra bias.

[NeuesLicht83]

Hi All, I’m new and after watching RFM and John, I’m ready to engage and get some real answers. I’m hoping to get some real perspective from those of you that have been on this path for true understanding in life. I thought I would list some of my biggest thoughts recently…

1. President Nelson and others seem genuine, and at such an advanced age, what real benefit do these men receive if it’s not real?

The same things leaders of and participants of mass movements get: power, recognition, respect (bordering on worship), special knowledge, participation in something that transcends this life. It doesn’t matter if it is real — all that matters is their belief it is real.

Perhaps I’m still naïve and obviously haven’t been able to fully let go of things, but how could a church like this grow to this magnitude that it is today?

[Res Ipsa]

The same things leaders of and participants of mass movements get: power, recognition, respect (bordering on worship), special knowledge, participation in something that transcends this life. It doesn’t matter if it is real — all that matters is their belief it is real.

Perhaps I’m still naïve and obviously haven’t been able to fully let go of things, but how could a church like this grow to this magnitude that it is today?

I’m not sure what you mean by “like this.”

[NeuesLicht83]

Perhaps I’m still naïve and obviously haven’t been able to fully let go of things, but how could a church like this grow to this magnitude that it is today?

I’m not sure what you mean by “like this.”

Yeah, that’s not clear, apologies. I mean the growth from when the church began till now. The membership, buildings, temples, relationships in the world, etc. you look at other denominations like the Community of Christ and others, and they did not grow like the LDS Church. Just curious on others thoughts about that.

I suppose my thinking for a long time was that how far the Church has come shows the legitimacy.

[Res Ipsa]

I’m not sure what you mean by “like this.”

Yeah, that’s not clear, apologies. I mean the growth from when the church began till now. The membership, buildings, temples, relationships in the world, etc. you look at other denominations like the Community of Christ and others, and they did not grow like the LDS Church. Just curious on others thoughts about that.

I suppose my thinking for a long time was that how far the Church has come shows the legitimacy.

If growth and longevity were evidence of legitimacy, why wouldn’t you be Catholic? Or Muslim?

It’s perfectly natural for you to have equated the Church’s growth over time with legitimacy because that’s what the Church and other members have been telling you for over 30 years. The Church itself supports this fallacious argument by counting membership in a way that it knows significantly exaggerates the number of people who consider themselves LDS. Just compare the numbers of people who identify their religion as LDS in surveys or census reports with the Church’s reported totals. If you’ve never done that, you’re in for a shock.

The last time I checked, both the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the 7th Day Adventists were growing faster than the LDS Church, and their reported totals are much more representative of active members than the LDS Church’s.

For a while now, the number of people who convert to Mormonism in the US has been roughly the same as the number who leave Mormonism. In other words, the missionary effort in the US is completely offset by members who leave the church. And the retention of members is much worse in many other countries.

Here’s the question most Mormons don’t think to ask: if the LDS church is true, why does it have such an abysmal rate of member retention?