Names and Reincarnation in Early Mormonism

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Ramus_Stein
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Re: Names and Reincarnation in Early Mormonism

Post by Ramus_Stein »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:26 am
Well then, I think we can rely on Smith's theological teachings of the resurrection as told by Alma (chapter 40) in the Book of Mormon when addressing the space between the time of death and the time of resurrection. Alma makes it clear that the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life and they await the resurrection in a place where they are assigned to wait for the final call -- the day of resurrection. Chapter 40 is very explicit about Smith's ideas of resurrection regarding the condition of man between the state of death and resurrection.

Also, Smith must have been familiar with the famous saying of Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" and he fully endorsed it.
Thanks Shulem. This is very helpful criticism. I have to be able to answer these points. It will take some time to work this out. Maybe my idea is wrong. Kishkumen has some good suggestions, but these points you are making against my idea are important for me to consider.
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Re: Names and Reincarnation in Early Mormonism

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Ramus_Stein wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:34 pm
l criticism. I have to be able to answer these points. It will take some time to work this out. Maybe my idea is wrong. Kishkumen has some good suggestions, but these points you are making against my idea are important for me to consider.
Bear in mind we have two Joseph's -- the one before the Church was founded and the one after. The first was much more esoteric in nature with all kinds of superstitious elements to include treasure seeking, spirits, etc. I don't doubt for a second that Smith and perhaps members of his clan entertained ideas of reincarnation or multiple lives. But I tend to think Smith got more conservative after the Church was organized and in his bid to outdo the Catholics and Protestants he was trying to restore original Christianity and in doing so he had to keep within certain limits.

Recall Brigham Young, I think, taught that Adam was literally Elohim the Father having come down to assume another body and start the human race. Little doubt he got those ideas from his boss, Joseph. The Adam God doctrine has ever been a thorn in the side of the Church.

The Church today is utterly boring and without life. There is no excitement in Mormonism. It's simply a matter of joining the corporation and receiving promised blessings of godhood which to this day remain a mystery and isn't discussed.
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Re: Names and Reincarnation in Early Mormonism

Post by Kishkumen »

Bear in mind we have two Joseph's -- the one before the Church was founded and the one after. The first was much more esoteric in nature with all kinds of superstitious elements to include treasure seeking, spirits, etc. I don't doubt for a second that Smith and perhaps members of his clan entertained ideas of reincarnation or multiple lives. But I tend to think Smith got more conservative after the Church was organized and in his bid to outdo the Catholics and Protestants he was trying to restore original Christianity and in doing so he had to keep within certain limits.

Recall Brigham Young taught that Adam was literally Elohim the Father having come down to assume another body and start the human race. Little doubt he got those ideas from his boss, Joseph. The Adam God doctrine has ever been a thorn in the side of the Church.

The Church today is utterly boring and without life. There is no excitement in Mormonism. It's simply a matter of joining the corporation and receiving promised blessings of godhood which to this day remain a mystery and isn't discussed.
Yes, that is the perception. Kooky Joe became the respectable prophet. I agree that there was an effort to fit what had been a more freewheeling treasure digging enterprise into a church, but if there is one thing I have learned in the past ten years, it is that the “kooky” part never really went away. Rather, we are programmed by influential voices to think it did. That is because good historians like Richard Bushman need to fit the treasure seer and the prophet together in a linear narrative that corresponds well with their sense of Joseph Smith. The truth is messier. The evidence is messier. Religious Joseph and magician Joseph are to be found on both sides of the organization of the church. There is no neat evolution from treasure digger to prophet.

It is more likely the case that in certain respects Smith sublimated the kooky part until the church was well underway. The evidence for esoteric teachings, however, can be found all the way through.

Brigham Young felt freer to take the esoterica of Mormonism public in his theocratic kingdom in the West. Problem was: he had a pretty idiosyncratic take on some of those teachings. Some were way too literal and lacked any subtlety or nuance. That is because Brigham lacked subtlety and nuance. He was a man of action, not a great mind.

Today most Fundamentalists hold onto Brigham’s version of that esoterica, unfortunately. Good scholarship will hopefully help us better understand Joseph’s higher teachings before Brigham got “creative” with them.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Names and Reincarnation in Early Mormonism

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Plug in John's 5th angel for this look:

"And I saw another angel (NOAH) fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people"

Smith said John's revelation was one of the plainest of books but in reality it's more like a dream or a hallucination -- nothing plain about it. I picture the writer of the Book of Revelation sitting in a dark cave and smoking opium by candle light. That was 2,000 years ago and so far there have been no angels coming down and sweeping the earth with the sound of their horns. The Mormons claim their Church is like the sound of the angel's horn. Well, we see what happened to Moroni's horn when a little earthquake shook the Salt Lake temple -- it was cast from the face of the gold leafed angel and thrown to the ground. How ironic.
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Re: Names and Reincarnation in Early Mormonism

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Shulem wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:12 pm
Plug in John's 5th angel for this look:

"And I saw another angel (NOAH) fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people"

Smith said John's revelation was one of the plainest of books but in reality it's more like a dream or a hallucination -- nothing plain about it. I picture the writer of the Book of Revelation sitting in a dark cave and smoking opium by candle light. That was 2,000 years ago and so far there have been no angels coming down and sweeping the earth with the sound of their horns. The Mormons claim their Church is like the sound of the angel's horn. Well, we see what happened to Moroni's horn when a little earthquake shook the Salt Lake temple -- it was cast from the face of the gold leafed angel and thrown to the ground. How ironic.
It may be that Moroni's horn is hinting at his true identity!
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Re: Names and Reincarnation in Early Mormonism

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Shulem wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:12 pm
Plug in John's 5th angel for this look:

"And I saw another angel (NOAH) fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people"

Smith said John's revelation was one of the plainest of books but in reality it's more like a dream or a hallucination -- nothing plain about it. I picture the writer of the Book of Revelation sitting in a dark cave and smoking opium by candle light. That was 2,000 years ago and so far there have been no angels coming down and sweeping the earth with the sound of their horns. The Mormons claim their Church is like the sound of the angel's horn. Well, we see what happened to Moroni's horn when a little earthquake shook the Salt Lake temple -- it was cast from the face of the gold leafed angel and thrown to the ground. How ironic.
Margaret Barker's book on the Revelation of John completely dismantled anything about it being a futuristic prophecy for me. Her analysis appeared to me to be rock solid, and perhaps that is why the Mopologists sort of cooled toward using her. The Revelation has nothing to do with our day in any manner. It is all about John's day 2,000 years ago. I thought Barker did an exceptional job with it. It cooled my ardor for much of anything of prophecy anywhere in the New Testament. I know she is controversial, and not well liked by some and loved by others. I used to love her, but at least she is quite interesting. There is no question she is vastly more familiar with biblical sources than I will ever be. That's sort of what makes her fun to read when I have time.
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Re: Names and Reincarnation in Early Mormonism

Post by Shulem »

Philo, it might serve us well to open a thread on the Book of Revelation where various points and concepts can be explored and more fully discussed. That would prove quite interesting, indeed. It's not a rush, just whenever. There are always fun things to discuss about St John's opium highs.

It's always hilarious when some nut claims to be Jesus reincarnated. Not sure if someone has claimed to be St. John, yet.
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