Live brainwashing at the Y: You know more about God

[_leeirons]

Freedom of information.

You seem to have read all of the other "free" information out there. Or did you actually BUY books from people to read their opinions on the LDS Church? Profit is a big motivator. The Book of Mormon can be obtained free of charge. Have you read it yet? Or did someone tell you that if you did such a thing, it would brain-wash you? Who is using brain-washing? And who is using scare tactics: the people who tell you the Gospel has been restored or the people who tell you that you will be risking eternal damnation if you read the Book of Mormon? By the way, the people who tell you that the Gospel has been restored do not tell you that you are doomed to hell if you do not believe it.

[_MormonMendacity]

When I was a missionary it went like this...

MM, you seem to have used this statement is at least a few posts in an attempt to impart some level of credibility to your statements.

lee, I hope you're a better scientist than psychologist. Your attempt at analyzing me, except for the benefit of weak believers, doesn't address the facts of the case. I've told my story and your feeble attempt to make yourself feel better by analyzing my exit from Mormonism is beneath a self-proclaimed scientist.

Since I'm not the one making extraordinary authoritative claims -- and then waffling on them with questionable explanations -- how about we focus on critically analyzing the risks of believing in manipulative claims instead of trying to get in my head? More interesting to me is how someone purports to be a scientist and accepts the notion that he's not worthy to see the plates. That he swallows a notion of godliness when the examples inside the book are all so ungoldy. I know why I did...do you know why you do?

[_leeirons]

When I was a missionary it went like this...

MM, you seem to have used this statement is at least a few posts in an attempt to impart some level of credibility to your statements.

lee, I hope you're a better scientist than psychologist. Your attempt at analyzing me, except for the benefit of weak believers, doesn't address the facts of the case. I've told my story and your feeble attempt to make yourself feel better by analyzing my exit from Mormonism is beneath a self-proclaimed scientist.

Since I'm not the one making extraordinary authoritative claims -- and then waffling on them with questionable explanations -- how about we focus on critically analyzing the risks of believing in manipulative claims instead of trying to get in my head? More interesting to me is how someone purports to be a scientist and accepts the notion that he's not worthy to see the plates. That he swallows a notion of godliness when the examples inside the book are all so ungoldy. I know why I did...do you know why you do?

You are making a claim that the Mormon religion is false based upon "scientific" evidence. Any person that makes a claim that a religion is false using science IS making an extraordinary claim, because you can't use science to disprove religion. They are mutually exclusive. A religious belief is not an extraordinary scientific claim.

You can't use science to prove or disprove a religious belief. I'm not the one attempting to use science to analyze a religious claim. Remember, religious faith should not be mixed up with science. However, claiming to have the final answer and close the book on any religious claim (e.g. DNA of current day native Americans) based upon our current level of scientific knowledge ASSUMES a whole lot, especially considering how quickly scientific knowledge changes.

If you don't believe, it is simply because you don't believe. Scientific evidence may have raised questions and doubts in your mind, but ultimately, your decision to not believe would be emotionally based.

[_MormonMendacity]

When I was a missionary it went like this...

MM, you seem to have used this statement is at least a few posts in an attempt to impart some level of credibility to your statements.

lee, I hope you're a better scientist than psychologist. Your attempt at analyzing me, except for the benefit of weak believers, doesn't address the facts of the case. I've told my story and your feeble attempt to make yourself feel better by analyzing my exit from Mormonism is beneath a self-proclaimed scientist.

Since I'm not the one making extraordinary authoritative claims -- and then waffling on them with questionable explanations -- how about we focus on critically analyzing the risks of believing in manipulative claims instead of trying to get in my head? More interesting to me is how someone purports to be a scientist and accepts the notion that he's not worthy to see the plates. That he swallows a notion of godliness when the examples inside the book are all so ungoldy. I know why I did...do you know why you do?

You are making a claim that the Mormon religion is false based upon "scientific" evidence.

Not anwhere I can see that I did. I'm asserting that Mormon claims should be questioned and that there appears to be a disconnect between claiming to have plates and actually having them. It seems so unnecessary. I'm giving my opinion on that based upon how I view the world. I can't accept extraordinary claims from the other religions and I won't anymore from Mormonism. That's what I did in my life. I believed my primary, sunday school, seminary, priesthood, young men's, quorum of the twelve and prophets. I believed.

"Read only books that increase your faith." -- I did.
"Don't read anti-Mormon books." -- I didn't.
"Pay your tithing, go on a mission, get married, have children...no need to wait. Those who don't wait do fine."

My experience differed from that. Maybe there are others who are struggling to hold on to a belief that is not really serving them. I have six children. I struggled to support them and live up to the things I believed the church taught me. I suffered in so doing. Do I blame the Church and its leaders? Somewhat, but I primarily blame myself for not looking deeper than the pronouncements on earrings.

Now I have my children living the same faith I lived. I have a 28 year old daughter with four children who has serious medical problems everytime she gets pregnant. Her husband has a $9.00 hour job (that's another story) and all their children are born on the State's dime. This is my reality.

Any person that makes a claim that a religion is false using science IS making an extraordinary claim, because you can't use science to disprove religion. They are mutually exclusive. A religious belief is not an extraordinary scientific claim.

I've never said religion was false based upon science. I think I answered this one already.

You can't use science to prove or disprove a religious belief. I'm not the one attempting to use science to analyze a religious claim. Remember, religious faith should not be mixed up with science. However, claiming to have the final answer and close the book on any religious claim (e.g. DNA of current day native Americans) based upon our current level of scientific knowledge ASSUMES a whole lot, especially considering how quickly scientific knowledge changes.

That's what I think, too. Claiming to have the power to translate and not letting me see that he can is a claim to have an ability that I can't examine. In fact, subsequent scientific evidence -- or at least historical -- seems to invalidate the claim. I'm trying to use critical thinking skills to analyze the claim. Science should use those. You seem to think I am trotting out evidence to disprove the Church. How funny. I am very aware that we won't ever have that. But are YOU aware of the serious problems that the claims of Mormonism have? Are you aware that you have to accept the claim of prophetic translation of Golden Plates AND accept that you can't examine the plates? Questioning that is not only natural but probably good, especially if you extend that kind of faith to every other religion on the planet. Why not Mormonism?

If you don't believe, it is simply because you don't believe. Scientific evidence may have raised questions and doubts in your mind, but ultimately, your decision to not believe would be emotionally based.

Partially...not wholly. The promise in Moroni 10:4&5 talks about proof. Having the truth of these things manifest by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is not a claim of faith -- it's proof. It goes on to say that by this power you may know the truth of all things.

We can waffle around on "may" versus "will" and whether one has complied with all the preconditions in the promise. We can say that you just have to keep on trying and showing your faith before you will get an answer. But when someone begins to question the reliability of this claim of proof (that's what it is, isn't it? or do you think it's something else) isn't it just as valid for that person to say that the proof is false?

Couldn't it be? Couldn't I now have the opposite testimony? And couldn't it possibly be important for me to express it?

[_leeirons]

That's what I did in my life. I believed my primary, sunday school, seminary, priesthood, young men's, quorum of the twelve and prophets. I believed.

"Read only books that increase your faith." -- I did.
"Don't read anti-Mormon books." -- I didn't.
"Pay your tithing, go on a mission, get married, have children...no need to wait. Those who don't wait do fine."

My experience differed from that. Maybe there are others who are struggling to hold on to a belief that is not really serving them. I have six children. I struggled to support them and live up to the things I believed the church taught me. I suffered in so doing. Do I blame the Church and its leaders? Somewhat, but I primarily blame myself for not looking deeper than the pronouncements on earrings.

Now I have my children living the same faith I lived. I have a 28 year old daughter with four children who has serious medical problems everytime she gets pregnant. Her husband has a $9.00 hour job (that's another story) and all their children are born on the State's dime. This is my reality.

I know people that see it as being more important for their kids to marry a BIC Mormon than a convert, because of some perceived lack. One should always marry based upon many more qualities than just church membership. I'm sorry that your daughter seems to be in a tough situation.

The "have as many children as you can as soon as you can" thing, from the best that I can determine, is a "Mormon culture" thing, and not a commandment. The only commandment I know of is "multiply and replenish the Earth" and the guidance in Mosiah to not run faster than you have strength. I would agree with you that many are so buried in Mormon culture, that they separate it from Mormon doctrine. By the way, I had not rad McKonkies book, but it is not "canonical." If it were to say something I did not agree with, it would not shatter my faith. Men have their opinions, and some men are more "abundant" in their writings than others.

I was not born and raised in the Church. I joined at the age of 24. I myself have 5 children, the oldest is 16, and I was just dianosed with Marfan syndrome, though I have had blessings that have said I would be healed (before anyone knew of what was really wrong with me). There is elective heart surgery I can have to extend my life, and there are promising drugs that are being tested that are hopeful in reversing some of the more debilitating conditions of the disease. My big concern is my kids... they each have a 50% chance of having the disease. I certainly have lots of room to question my seeming lack of blessings being poured out in abundance upon me, as many people. For me, though, keeping my faith has more to offer than losing it. And I am becoming more happy now that I no longer put expectations on myself to keep up with the Mormon-Joneses, which is another Mormon-culture thing.

Claiming to have the power to translate and not letting me see that he can is a claim to have an ability that I can't examine. In fact, subsequent scientific evidence -- or at least historical -- seems to invalidate the claim. I'm trying to use critical thinking skills to analyze the claim. Science should use those. You seem to think I am trotting out evidence to disprove the Church. How funny. I am very aware that we won't ever have that. But are YOU aware of the serious problems that the claims of Mormonism have? Are you aware that you have to accept the claim of prophetic translation of Golden Plates AND accept that you can't examine the plates? Questioning that is not only natural but probably good, especially if you extend that kind of faith to every other religion on the planet. Why not Mormonism?

For you to see that Joseph Smith can translate would be a trick indeed, considering he is dead. ;-) At any rate, the claim is a religious claim, therefore scientific or histroic evidence could never support or disprove it. Yes, you can still personally apply crtical thinking at your own discretion. But the question of "do you have all the facts" to either accept or reject the religious claim is always open.

The promise in Moroni 10:4&5 talks about proof. Having the truth of these things manifest by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is not a claim of faith -- it's proof. It goes on to say that by this power you may know the truth of all things.

We can waffle around on "may" versus "will" and whether one has complied with all the preconditions in the promise. We can say that you just have to keep on trying and showing your faith before you will get an answer. But when someone begins to question the reliability of this claim of proof (that's what it is, isn't it? or do you think it's something else) isn't it just as valid for that person to say that the proof is false?

Couldn't it be? Couldn't I now have the opposite testimony? And couldn't it possibly be important for me to express it?

I like the scriptures that say "wait upon the Lord" and "be still, and know that I am God." When I die, if nothing happens after that, I won't know the difference anyway. But it is comforting in the here and now to know that I don't have to have all the answers and have control over everything that happens to me, and it is okay because God does. Can I be comforted without such a belief? Maybe. But, for me, it is more pleasant to believe in life after death, than not.