Mormonisms social caste system - My Personal Experience

[_Yoda]

I agree. Plutarch, you seem to be prone to making judgements without having all of the facts. If you do that in a courtroom, you're probably not that successful as an attorney. Something tells me you only operate that way on a personal level.

I operate off the facts given me; unlike most posters on this board, Harmony uses her personal situation as a weapon against the Church.

But, my personal life is not an issue here, and to suggest that I am a lousy lawyer because of the lousy arguments I make here is, well, kind of silly on your part.

Plutarch.

First of all, I never said you were a lousy lawyer because of the arguments you make here. I said that if you used the type of judgemental logic you tend to use here that you would make a lousy attorney in the courtroom.

You claim that you operate off the facts given you. What "facts" were you basing your whole fictional picture of Harmony's married life and her interaction with the Church? It was complete speculation and absurd fantasy on your part!

And exactly how has Harmony used her "personal situation" as a "weapon against the Church"? Exactly what "personal situation" are you referring to? And how, exactly, is she battling the Church?

As far as I can tell, the only thing she has done is expressed her opinion regarding things she doesn't like about the Church on an anonymous message board. How is that being a "weapon" against the Church?

[_moksha]

... to suggest that I am a lousy lawyer because of the lousy arguments I make here is, well, kind of silly on your part.

Plutarch.

That could be a great line for My Cousin Vinnie II. You should tell them they are lucky to get any arguments at all when your case is weak to begin with. Besides, you are doing this on a Pro Bono basis.

[_desert_vulture]

Nobody...nobody who actually knows faithful, practicing Mormons is ever going to believe you Vegas, and many of them are going to walk away from you with the terms liar, bigot, and ass running through their minds from the encounter.

I know faithful practicing Mormons. I go to church almost every Sunday, unless I'm sick or don't feel like going to church that particular Sunday. I have to say that Vegas is pretty accurate from what I've seen. We have a few professionals in our ward, and they seem to dominate the leadership callings. I don't think Vegas is misstating anything regarding the caste system. I think it is important to remember that caste systems have been in place for centuries, but the Mormon caste system is relatively new, so the royal bloodlines aren't set in stone, you can still move up in the batting order if you know the right people, have the right career, have a lot of money, follow the gospel outwardly, or are a physically attractive person. Of course, any combination of these attributes boosts your relative value in the Mormon caste system.

[_Mrs Robbins]

If you drive a car that is pretty nice looking and you dress good you are going to get better treated.

[_Roger Morrison]

Miss Taken, i love yer play on words! But yer not mistaken at all with your statement:

One thing I have learned from my life outside church, is really and I mean really...for the most part people in the church are NO better than those out of it. Sad but true. Infact as one of my neighbours who works tirelessly for various charity's shows me, as an agnostic, she does good works, soley for the joy of doing them, not for desire of reward or honour. This is a much more authentic way to go in my opinion.

Because there is no real difference in the moral standards of those in and those out of the church, we are ALL human afterall, it always grieves me when I see active members differenciate between the standards of the world and those of the church. This was really not my experience on any level internally, or externally. (and I would rather not go into detail, but I could list a whole host of events that indicate this was so) The only thing that differenciates Mormons from non-mormons is that they believe in the specifics of the Joseph Smith story, though of course, the commitment to 'trying' to be better people is a wonderful one, though again, many non-mormons share this same goal.

Most folks who have "moved" a bit in the church i think would see the same dynamics. Unfortunately there seems a polyanna attitude in LDSism that suppresses honest acknowledgement of its warts. Cases in point:

When a new SP was needed in our stake in Eastern Canada, a GA came to do the deed. When the New SP was introduced, it was with the following comments, "...when i saw Bro ABC in the stake, i didn't have to interview anyone else. ABC was neighbor to my grandmother out west, and we used to play together when i visited her, many years ago..." What he didn't know about ABC that had transpired in the interviening years was completely ignored. Was he a good man? As most. Was he the best-for-the-job?? Probably would not have been chosen by those who knew him...

A winner of an international competition was baptised into our ward, and fellowshipped by a couple of members of the same age to a successful integration. In very short order church PR interviewed the Celeb and made much hay with special Stake and Regional speaking gigs etc. To the point the person just said no to further exploitation. I think there was also an article with pics in the Improvement Era. With not a word about those who had nurtured the person into the ward...

No one can deny LDS good-stuff. Nor should they deny that which needs to be improved in each new era.

[_rcrocket]

Mr. Scratch quote: Because the published report of expenditures included [Elder Henry Moyle's] building program, Moyle persuaded McKay not to publish even an abbreviated accounting of church spending. There has been no itemized financial report since.
This policy reversed Clark's insistence on full financial disclosure to the public. [...] In his view, voluntary disclosure of deficits encouraged greater austerity on the part of leaders at headquarters and elsewhere. ---Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, pp. 26-27.

One of Quinn's footnoted sources I can't locate; a paper in Church archives which he cites.

But, also in support of this statement (really, the last sentence of the quote), Quinn cites to his own work, J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. His own earlier work (which went through peer review; Extensions was much less rigorous or non-existent, according to the Wall Street Journal), does not make the claim that Scratch thinks is important.

So, Scratch, I challenge you to provide the original source material which backs up your claim. Put up or shut up. The burden is upon you. I'm calling you out.

P

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Mr. Scratch quote: Because the published report of expenditures included [Elder Henry Moyle's] building program, Moyle persuaded McKay not to publish even an abbreviated accounting of church spending. There has been no itemized financial report since.
This policy reversed Clark's insistence on full financial disclosure to the public. [...] In his view, voluntary disclosure of deficits encouraged greater austerity on the part of leaders at headquarters and elsewhere. ---Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, pp. 26-27.

One of Quinn's footnoted sources I can't locate; a paper in Church archives which he cites.

But, also in support of this statement (really, the last sentence of the quote), Quinn cites to his own work, J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. His own earlier work (which went through peer review; Extensions was much less rigorous or non-existent, according to the Wall Street Journal), does not make the claim that Scratch thinks is important.

Quinn's bio of J. Rueben Clark has more detail. On pp. 409-10 in Elder Statesman, Quinn quotes from Marion Romney's diary entry for April 6, 1944, wherein Romney describes Clark's reading of the Church's financial report at the April 1944 Gen'l Conference as "more comprehensible and complete than any financial report which has been given to the Church in my day." This changed with the DOM administration, however. On p. 410 in Elder Statesman, Quinn quotes from Clark's diary entry for April 3, 1953, concerning the approval by Pres. David O. McKay and Stephen L. Richards (1st counselor in the FP) of a less detailed financial disclosure for the April 1953 Gen'l Conference; Clark wrote: "They ought to tell the people all they can tell them," because he "hated to see what they tell them cut down, [because] it might raise some comment." After the 1959 Gen'l Conference, the Church stopped providing financial disclosures altogether, which may have been a factor in Clark's statement at that same conference about a possible "occasional lack of integrity" when the Church makes "great expenditures of money." (Elder Statesman, p. 421). My take? I think Clark was very conservative when it came to finances, and because of that always felt that full financial disclosure kept excessive spending under control.

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

Then therewould be no mall by the way...no churches on every block....