Doctrinal descriptions of former believers

[_Runtu]

So, nothing yet in the way of any church leaders teaching tolerance of apostates.

And to answer your question, Mak, yes, of course, these teachings are meant to marginalize the apostate to protect the flock from being tainted by them.

A couple of personal anecdotes. I well remember sitting in the All-Church Coordinating Council meeting when Boyd Packer gave his talk about three "threats" to the church: gays, feminists, and intellectuals. I was (and still remain) appalled at the way he mocked and ridiculed people with genuine concerns. To me, what he was doing was reinforcing the idea that none of these people had legitimate reasons for questioning the church. No, he told us, real members all "face the same direction," with the leaders guiding them. Those who question are not just misguided; they are threats.

When I explained to my wife that I no longer believed, she first asked me if I was having an affair. I was stunned. She has since told me that she will not even discuss my reasons for disbelief because it's clear that I let my own pride (and Satan's influence) lead me to bad conclusions.

I like you, Mak, but I'm really surprised that you don't see these teachings for what they are. We "apostates" have all experienced the same things, and there's a reason for it.

[_Jason Bourne]

yes. No questions about it. When I bring up concerns I have to my wife she think satan is trying to destroy me and my family and she blames all this starting with an evangelical critic that I became friendly with about 7 years ago. She calls him a sheep in wolves clothing, siad I should have never tried to debate with him and just stayed away. This is a common attitude.

So is disliking Utah, but that doesn't make it the intention of the church leaders. What makes you think this is the purpose of those teachings.

This attitude is quite prevelant. If you reject the One True Church there must be some flaw in you. And no matter what you think people like this fade from their former social circle. That latter may be due to both parties however.

I think there is probably a comfort issue on both sides, but consider a scenario. I feel I have a strong testimony of the gospel. When I say I know it's true I really do feel it has been shown to me as well as anything can be shown to me. I can't make you feel the same way, but if I feel that way about it is it not natural to be concerned when another rejects that? Nevermind whether or not you believe the testimony to be valid, if I do can you really accuse me of trying to shield myself from you if I ask you what's up?

Sure it is natural. Birds of a feather flcok together. It is also there and somewhat encouraged by leaders-choose Friends carefully, Elder Hollands talk a few years back about being on the firnge and casting doubts to children-it is bad to have questions is the message, and so on. It insulates and causes those that are still solid to view those who are not as defective and not desirible to be like.

Of course some of this is the social dynamics of it all.

[_cacheman]

So, nothing yet in the way of any church leaders teaching tolerance of apostates.

Interesting. Surely there are good things about everyone, even those who have left the church. There just has to be a scripture or GA talk somewhere acknowledging that moving on from the church is not necessarily due to a character flaw or spiritual deficiency.

Again, I invite anyone but particularly believing LDS, to provide examples of positive descriptions of former believers from LDS leaders or the scriptures.

cacheman

[_Who Knows]

A talk by Carlos Asay (Presidency of the 70) in 1981 here:

Here are his 9 courses of action when dealing with apostates:

1. Avoid those who would teardown your faith. Faith-killers are to be shunned. The seeds which they plant in the minds and hearts of men grow like cancer and eat away the Spirit. True messengers of God are builders—not destroyers. We send our missionaries into the world to teach and to assist people in receiving truth line upon line until the fulness of the gospel is received. (See D&C 98:112.) As one new convert testified: “My previous church provided me the chapter on mortality. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints added two more chapters pertaining to the premortal and postmortal existences.”

2. Keep the commandments. President Brigham Young promised, “All we have to do is to go onward and upward, and keep the commandments of our Father and God; and he will confound our enemies.” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957, p. 347.) If we obey holy laws, we will take upon ourselves “the whole armour of God” and we will be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (See Eph. 6:11–18.) Moreover, obedience ensures us of the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit.

3. Follow the living prophets, as we have just been admonished. One Church leader taught: “Always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it. … But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.” (Heber J. Grant, quoted by Marion G. Romney in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78.) We walk in uncharted mine fields and place our souls in jeopardy when we receive the teachings of anyone except he that is ordained of God. (See D&C 43:2–7; D&C 52:9.)

4. Do not contend or debate over points of doctrine. The Master warned that “the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil.” (3 Ne. 11:29.) We are inconsistent if we resort to Satanic tactics in attempting to achieve righteous ends. Such inconsistency results only in frustration, loss of the Spirit, and ultimate defeat. Remember, “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege.” (Eleventh Article of Faith.)

5. Search the scriptures. Few of us would go astray or lose our way if we regarded the scriptures as our personal guide or compass. (See Alma 37:44.) The iron rod is the word of God, and if held to, we will not fall.

6. Do not be swayed or diverted from the mission of the Church. There are those who would draw you off course and cause you to waste time and energies. Satan used a diversion ploy when he tempted Christ in the wilderness. The Savior’s decisive response, “Get thee hence, Satan” (Matt. 4:10), is a proper example for all of us.

7. Pray for your enemies. Christ said to the Nephites, “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you.” (3 Ne. 12:44; see also Matt. 5:44; 3 Ne. 12:10–12.) While on the cross, the Savior pled, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34.) There are many who are kept from the truth—not because they don’t want it, but because they know not where to find it.

8. Practice “pure religion.” Involve yourself in Christian service. Succor the needs of the sick and poor; visit the fatherless and widows, and be charitable to all whether in the Church or out of the Church. (See James 1:27 and Alma 1:30.)

9. Remember that there may be many questions for which we have no answers and that some things have to be accepted simply on faith. An angel of the Lord asked Adam, “Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord?” He answered, “I know not, save the Lord commanded me.” (Moses 5:6.) There may be times when we are called upon to climb Mount Moriahs and to sacrifice our Isaacs without a full and prior explanation. Faith is the first principle of the gospel; it is a principle of progress.

I think the above pretty much summarizes LDS views on apostates - shun and avoid them, but pray for them.