Utah #1 in nation in teen suicides

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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Here's an even better one from a 1991 article in the New Era:

Well, whether or not you’re a thrower or a runner, you’ve still received the challenge of becoming like the Savior. That’s a greater task than running or throwing any day, and it takes much more determination.

One key to becoming Christlike is remembering that you can’t do it all at once. It comes little by little, line upon line, precept upon precept. In this life, the important thing is to be working toward perfection.

That’s where measuring sticks come in. Sometimes, because progress is a line-upon-line slow process, it may seem like you’re making no progress at all, that you’re no closer to achieving your goal than you were when you began. Of course, some things simply aren’t measurable. But many of your efforts are, so it’s possible to evaluate your progress to see if you’re improving.

Regular assessment of your progress helps motivate you to keep working. Peter’s goal to throw the discus 150 feet and my goal to run three miles in 21 minutes were helped with each measurement. When Peter threw 148 feet, he was even more determined to make 150, and when my stopwatch continually reads 21 minutes at the end of my run, I feel good about my efforts.

If, for example, you want to read the Book of Mormon every day, you can track your progress by writing the number of pages you read on a calendar or plan book. Seeing the daily progress you make will help you continue working on your reading. Likewise, writing your goals in your journal and reviewing them from time to time will help you see how you’re doing on them. Later you can add journal entries for new goals. That way, you can see your progress, and though it may take you several months or more to accomplish some goals, your measuring stick will show you that you are making progress.

Measuring sticks are as varied as the things they measure. Interviews with members of your bishopric, Young Men or Young Women leaders, and parents can help you judge how well you’re doing in your personal progress. Other measuring devices include report cards, bathroom scales, stopwatches, calendars, charts, scriptures, prayers, and anything else that helps you judge your growth in a given area.

One warning about choosing measuring sticks—make sure that you’re measuring yourself against gospel and Church standards. A gospel perspective will help you realize that you’re better off and happier being a Latter-day Saint trying to live the commandments and achieve worthy goals than being a beauty queen, a famous athlete, or a wealthy businessman without the gospel. They may be successful by the world’s standards, but if they choose to ignore the teachings of the gospel, they’re only laying up treasures “where moth and rust doth corrupt” (Matt. 6:19).

There will be times, of course, when the tale of the tape (or whatever you’re using to measure your progress) is discouraging. I ran my three-mile course five mornings a week for a year before I saw anything even close to 21 minutes. And Peter didn’t crack 150 feet until the third meet of his senior season.

But even if I had never made my 21-minute goal or Peter had never thrown 150 feet, the important measurements, the truly important measurements, would have shown that we tried. So even if we had failed to make our goals, we would have been better people, moved one line closer to perfection, than if we hadn’t tried at all.

Think, for example, of the thousands of athletes who compete for a single spot on an Olympic team or the thousands of students who vie for a single scholarship. Only a few can win, but those who joined in the competition are strengthened and blessed by their efforts. It’s not always what we achieve through our efforts that matters; it’s what we become from having made the effort. We are blessed, whether we succeed or not, every time we honestly give our best effort in an endeavor. By using the right kind of measuring stick, you’ll know for sure if you’re standing still, going downhill, or moving, line upon line, precept upon precept, towards accomplishing your own worthy goals.


Did you catch that, mak? Perfection is our job, and we are to be constantly working toward it. What's that sound I hear? Right, it's the Savior and the Atonement not being mentioned.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

I want to apologize to Maklelan for getting a little heated yesterday. I haven't been feeling particularly well for almost 2 weeks now, and it probably was affecting my mood yesterday. We can disagree without rancor, and I apologize for contributing to the tone yesterday.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_hermanuno
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Post by _hermanuno »

These questions about what is church doctrine? And making an argument for a living prophet and what the church teaches...

Isn't church doctrine a completely elastic product? It has changed with every prophet and it continues to change with every sunday school teacher, primary teacher, relief society pres, ward clerk, bishop, stake pres, apostle and on and on. All of them teaching with their individual spin (which will happen with humans) and heaping on just a little bit of their own guilt. This strikes me as an argument against lay clergy and for professionally trained, lifelong priests or whatever supported by the church. A little continuity certainly wouldn't hurt.

Sorry, I know that is another subject but all the things pounded into my head growing up were "official church doctrine" as far as I knew. To a 14 year old sitting in the bishop's office being asked about playing with himself and girl's bodies, it is church doctrine. Was I supposed to know that and not be scarred because I may have realized it 20 years later?
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_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

hermanuno wrote:These questions about what is church doctrine? And making an argument for a living prophet and what the church teaches...

Isn't church doctrine a completely elastic product? It has changed with every prophet and it continues to change with every sunday school teacher, primary teacher, relief society pres, ward clerk, bishop, stake pres, apostle and on and on. All of them teaching with their individual spin (which will happen with humans) and heaping on just a little bit of their own guilt. This strikes me as an argument against lay clergy and for professionally trained, lifelong priests or whatever supported by the church. A little continuity certainly wouldn't hurt.


It's called "the teachings of men", and although we vehemently deny it, we have it in spades, all the way back to Joseph.
_Trinity
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Post by _Trinity »

If I may return to the original post. Harmony made a good list of what may be causing this high suicide rate in Utah. Might I also suggest that there is a higher concentration of Mormons who come directly from polygamous stock, suggesting that it may be easier for mental disorders to be inherited. I was shocked to learn how many teens were being diagnosed with puberty onset bipolar disorders and manic depression. These diagnoses are not easy because it is hard to determine which behaviors are caused by naturally occurring hormone changes associated with puberty. Most doctors will experiment with different types of medications to try to find one that tackles the symptoms. Sometimes it takes years of treatment before a right diagnosis with a right treatment plan is achieved. And in several cases I know, the treatment has the potential to be worse than the cure because it takes a while to figure out a workable medication, the right dosage for that medication. And with these types of conditions, nearly all of the drugs used to treat it warn that the drug itself may produce suicidal thoughts. On some of these drugs, it is required that the child be observed at all times to watch for suicidal behaviors.

Not fun things to be dealing with in children as young as 10 years old.
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008
_Mephitus
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Post by _Mephitus »

maklelan wrote:
Sono_hito wrote:Yes mak, I will swear to you by the blood of my own body that I'm not taking anything I said out of context or embelishing anything. As a man going through Mormonism in western washington, those where the kinds of things I was told regularly. Needless to say, it screwed me up for many years. I'm admitedly still trying to get around some of the programing.


And were they told to you as official church doctrine, (because they contradict church doctrine) or is it perhaps just your subjective interpretation jaded by critical retrospection? Or more likely still, are they the teachings of another person who misinterpreted them beforehand?


To give you the exact situation in which this was recounted: I was in a joint youngmen/youngwomen meeting in church in which the bishop was having an open Q/A session in which you could put a question into a bucket and he would answer it. My question was: If i have a "bad" (sinfull) dream, am i held accountable for it? (im not paraphrasing, that's the EXACT question and wording. Its permanently burned into my mind.) And the answer i said earlier was the answer he told the entire group of people of about 30-40 teenagers. I never thought anything else but that anything out of a bishops mouth was doctrine. The concept of him being ABLE to speak anything but doctrine literaly would not have processed in my mind during this time.

It felt wrong then (mostly because of all the guilt this IMMEDIATELY made me feel, i mean c'mon, i was a healthy kid of 15-16), and it feels even worse now that i know what healthy sexual behavior really is. It was essentialy sexual abuse telling a young man or woman that ANY sexul thoughts are harmfull, especialy during a time in your life that if the wind so much as changes dirrection you can become arroused. Its mentaly abusive to cause so much guilt and anguish over something so basic in human life.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
_Mephitus
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Post by _Mephitus »

maklelan wrote:
Who Knows wrote:Didn't BKP also say that wet dreams were the body's natural way of releasing the pressure build up in the little factory? Or something like that...


Well that's what they are.


Not all men can have a wet dream. Its something between 70%-80% that can. The 20%-30% who can't will basicly get a male version of PMS if they don't have a way to release otherwise.(and oh boy....it sucks for you and anyone who would dare get in your way) why do you think so many men commit suicide over this precise issue?
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
_maklelan
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Post by _maklelan »

Sono_hito wrote:To give you the exact situation in which this was recounted: I was in a joint youngmen/youngwomen meeting in church in which the bishop was having an open Q/A session in which you could put a question into a bucket and he would answer it. My question was: If I have a "bad" (sinfull) dream, am I held accountable for it? (I'm not paraphrasing, that's the EXACT question and wording. Its permanently burned into my mind.) And the answer I said earlier was the answer he told the entire group of people of about 30-40 teenagers. I never thought anything else but that anything out of a bishops mouth was doctrine. The concept of him being ABLE to speak anything but doctrine literaly would not have processed in my mind during this time.

It felt wrong then (mostly because of all the guilt this IMMEDIATELY made me feel, I mean c'mon, I was a healthy kid of 15-16), and it feels even worse now that I know what healthy sexual behavior really is. It was essentialy sexual abuse telling a young man or woman that ANY sexul thoughts are harmfull, especialy during a time in your life that if the wind so much as changes dirrection you can become arroused. Its mentaly abusive to cause so much guilt and anguish over something so basic in human life.


Yeah, and that bishop's an idiot. What he said is totally incompatible with what the church and science understands about human sexuality. I've heard several GA's talk about this issue and they don't at all agree with this bishop. I would chalk that one entirely up to a silly local authority way misinterpreting a pretty clear teaching.
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_maklelan
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Post by _maklelan »

Runtu wrote:
maklelan wrote:My mistake. OK, how 'bout the statement about having to be perfect. I'm sure you can find much about being commanded to be perfect, but can you find anything that says that without also saying that it's impossible outside of Christ?


Here's the entire text of a talk from Theodore Burton (I'm old enough to remember him). I suppose you could say the "mighty change of heart" scripture is the "impossible without Christ" context, but in those days that scripture was used more as a way to tell if you were really following Christ. If you hadn't had the "mighty change" (in other words, if you still had desire to sin) you weren't really following Christ. Anyway, I don't see the atonement as playing a prominent part in this talk, do you?


I very much do. I don't believe this article at all tells us we have to be perfect:

I dare not say that Mormons are perfect, for you know as well as I do that we each have many human faults. We do, however, call ourselves saints as did the members of the Church of Jesus Christ in the days of the original apostles. When those apostles wrote letters to the members of the Church they addressed them as saints. A saint is not necessarily a person who is perfect, but he is a person who strives for perfection—one who tries to overcome those faults and failings which take him away from God. A true saint will seek to change his manner of living to conform more closely to the ways of the Lord.

It is true that we each have imperfections to overcome. Life is a constant series of challenges and trials. Notwithstanding, we should never fail to strive for that perfection of life which can bring us closer into harmony with God.

. . .

If we believe in Jesus Christ that completely, then we can say as did the people of King Benjamin that we know of a surety of the truth of the gospel:

“… because of the Spirit of the Lord God Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.” (Mosiah 5:2.)


I use this scripture at least once a week in discussions or lessons about the atonement. Repentance literally means a change, which is the change spoken of here. When we accept Christ and are made "perfect in him," so to speak, the atonement cleanses us and we lose all desire to sin. It's not a permanent change, but this is a pure atonement reference here. This speaker, however, continues to address the permanence of the dedication to God rather than the presence of the spirit, glancing off the atonement and continuing on to talk about what we need to do:

When I speak then of total commitment, I do not refer to a momentary dedication which comes from being filled with the Spirit of God only on certain occasions such as in this conference. I refer to a daily or continuing spirit of devotion and dedication which comes from keeping all the commandments of God every day.


It's pretty absolute, but his earlier quote should make clear that he really doesn't expect total perfection. He's using hyperbole to drive it home, like Kimball does in Miracle of Forgiveness. I wouldn't be so focused on our personal responsibilities (it tends to make people feel bad), but I don't see anything undoctrinal in here.
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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

maklelan wrote:It's pretty absolute, but his earlier quote should make clear that he really doesn't expect total perfection. He's using hyperbole to drive it home, like Kimball does in Miracle of Forgiveness. I wouldn't be so focused on our personal responsibilities (it tends to make people feel bad), but I don't see anything undoctrinal in here.


Any response to the second article, which not only puts perfection on the individual's shoulders but talks about how one can measure success toward the goal of perfection?
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