Why So Few Faithful?

[_moksha]

1) Comparatively speaking, what value does this board offer to faithful LDS over what may be available on other boards?
d) Some of the faithful may have the false hope that they may re-convert somebody here, or persuade some, to one degree or another, to their point of view, or a least have a mutually respectful discussion. Or, as in my case, they may have the false hope that they might help some here to over-come certain emotional hurts, anger, hatred, etc., and provide insights and skills for improving interfaith relations. As long as they have that false hope, this is as good as place as any, if not better, than elsewhere on the net. However, once they loose that false hope, as I have begun to, the value to them in participating here may wane toward zero.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, don't give up. You have a much bigger impact than you realize. We all despair but it is still important to keep plugging along. What you do is good, so it would be to all our detriment if you abandoned it. Perhaps this will help: Just concentrate on putting out good vibes into the world and the rest will take care of itself.

I would add one more item that may be an attraction to the faithful:

e) Less red ink. I doubt few members like the thought of someone with moderating authority, looking over their shoulder, constantly ready to pounce or criticize if what they say does not meet with the moderator's approval. While this does not effect all, since most do not stray from the flock in their thoughts, this is not always the case. Even the moderates (the flock) do not want to be nipped at by overly efficient sheep dogs (the moderators who keep them in line). It is a yearning of humanity to breath free and not be nipped.

[_harmony]

I would add one more item that may be an attraction to the faithful:

e) Less red ink. I doubt few members like the thought of someone with moderating authority, looking over their shoulder, constantly ready to pounce or criticize if what they say does not meet with the moderator's approval. While this does not effect all, since most do not stray from the flock in their thoughts, this is not always the case. Even the moderates (the flock) do not want to be nipped at by overly efficient sheep dogs (the moderators who keep them in line). It is a yearning of humanity to breath free and not be nipped.

In my experience, the faithful like the idea of red ink, especially if it means someone else is getting nipped (to mix your metaphors). LDS faithful are altogether too eager to make snap judgments against others, based only on their own assumptions and faulty reasoning. For such a non-judgmental people, we're awfully eager to judge.[/i]

[_wenglund]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Part of me is convinced that it's your presentation, not so much the approach, that renders your suggestions ineffective. Have you really done some soul-searching introspection to discern the problem, or are you content to externalize the reasons for your lack of success?

Yes, I have done some soul searching, and I have considered both internal and exteranal reasons for the lack of success. In fact, some time ago I came to the conclusion that there were a number of internal reasons, and I have worked to change them, but to no avail. For instance, I found that people tend not to respond well when they perceive they are being criticized. So, rather than criticizing people, I have opted to merely mention certain challenges I have personally faced, and what I have found to be healthy and functional ways of meeting those challenges. But, even that benign "presentation" didn't work.

Now, I am still open to the possibility that it is my "presentation" that is behind the lack of success, rather than external causations, but I am at a loss in figuring out what exactly I could functionally change that would make the difference. Besides, I am not sure helping people should be this difficult--that is, unless the people don't wish to be helped or don't think they are the one's needing help (in which case, it wouldn't matter what I did or how I did it, there is little or no chance of success under those conditions).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think this may be part of the problem in your approach, Wade. Don't assume that everyone here "needs to be helped". Some are seeking help, but it seems to me that the majority of posters who come here are simply interested in discussing different issues involving the Church. Some of these issues are positive, and some are negative. Sometimes, it is simply the act of discussion, and discovering different viewpoints that helps one form their own conclusion, or leads them to a place where they can find answers, if answers are what they are seeking.

Maybe your approach should be to simply be a person wanting to discuss things, instead of feeling like you are on some mission to help people change.

You and I had some very heated arguments, but were able to come to an understanding. I think that in the past month or so, we have been able to treat each other with mutual respect.

I hope you reconsider, and decide to stay with us.

Hi Liz,

As intimated earlier, there are a number of repelling elements to this board. Because of this, pragmatically and economically, in order for me and other faithful members to want to post here, there needs to be at least some perceived benefits that outweigh the repulsions. To me, "just wanting to discuss things" wont suffice. I can discuss things most anywhere. In fact, I have found that I can have more productive conversations with a brick wall than I can with people like Beastie, Scratch, KG/Dart, Vegasrefuge, harmony and others. So, the question is, what benefits is there here that would exceed the perceived costs? Why would I and other "TBMs" want to post here rather than elsewhere?

My wanting to improve the human condition, and once thinking this board to a better place than most for doing that, was sufficient for quite some time. However, as you surmize, my wanting to help others (along with myself) has been problematic. Many here are so hyper-critically focused on the Church and the MA&D board that for the life of them they can't see some of their own glaring faults. They mistakely think they don't need help, and thus don't want help. They are highly adverse to personal introspection, accountability, and improvement As I have begun to realize this more and more, the balance has shifted to there being a disincentive for me to post here.

Of course there are the exceptions. I have, for the most part and all along, enjoyed my exchanges with Moksha and Runtu and Roger and Coggins and truth dancer, and over the last little while I have appreciated the more edifying discussions I have been able to have with you. But, those positives don't outweigh for me the negative.

I am not sure whether other believing members will see it the same as me and think it counter-valuable to participate much here (I doubt that I will entirely leave this board--I am vulnerable to false hopes), but at least the good folks here will have you and KG to rub shoulders with. Certainly, the two of you have been able to endear yourselves to former members far more so that I, and that says at least something.


Hi Roger and Moksha,

I appreciate the words of encouragement. They meant alot to me. If there is any hope of reaching some of the good folks here, and improving interfaith dialogue, it will be from the better example that you each have set. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mister Scratch]

As intimated earlier, there are a number of repelling elements to this board. Because of this, pragmatically and economically, in order for me and other faithful members to want to post here, there needs to be at least some perceived benefits that outweigh the repulsions. To me, "just wanting to discuss things" wont suffice. I can discuss things most anywhere. In fact, I have found that I can have more productive conversations with a brick wall than I can with people like Beastie, Scratch, KG/Dart, Vegasrefuge, harmony and others. So, the question is, what benefits is there here that would exceed the perceived costs? Why would I and other "TBMs" want to post here rather than elsewhere?

My wanting to improve the human condition, and once thinking this board to a better place than most for doing that, was sufficient for quite some time. However, as you surmize, my wanting to help others (along with myself) has been problematic. Many here are so hyper-critically focused on the Church and the MA&D board that for the life of them they can't see some of their own glaring faults.

Hi, Wade. Great post. I've asked you before, and really, I'd like to know: What are my "own glaring faults"? That I am critical of the Church? You have never really answered this question. Instead, you've been evasive.

They mistakely think they don't need help, and thus don't want help. They are highly adverse to personal introspection, accountability, and improvement

You have to clearly articulate what the problem is, Wade. You cannot play these little song-and-dance games, where you try to "trick" the person into magically discovering what his/her own faults are. Just speak up and say it, man.

As I have begun to realize this more and more, the balance has shifted to there being a disincentive for me to post here.

Of course there are the exceptions. I have, for the most part and all along, enjoyed my exchanges with Moksha and Runtu and Roger and Coggins and truth dancer, and over the last little while I have appreciated the more edifying discussions I have been able to have with you. But, those positives don't outweigh for me the negative.

And what are the negatives? That *you* have been forced to introspect?

I am not sure whether other believing members will see it the same as me and think it counter-valuable to participate much here (I doubt that I will entirely leave this board--I am vulnerable to false hopes), but at least the good folks here will have you and KG to rub shoulders with. Certainly, the two of you have been able to endear yourselves to former members far more so that I, and that says at least something.

Well, I, for one, hope you stick around, as I enjoy your presence here very much.

[_moksha]

I would add one more item that may be an attraction to the faithful:

e) Less red ink. I doubt few members like the thought of someone with moderating authority, looking over their shoulder, constantly ready to pounce or criticize if what they say does not meet with the moderator's approval. While this does not effect all, since most do not stray from the flock in their thoughts, this is not always the case. Even the moderates (the flock) do not want to be nipped at by overly efficient sheep dogs (the moderators who keep them in line). It is a yearning of humanity to breath free and not be nipped.

In my experience, the faithful like the idea of red ink, especially if it means someone else is getting nipped (to mix your metaphors). LDS faithful are altogether too eager to make snap judgments against others, based only on their own assumptions and faulty reasoning. For such a non-judgmental people, we're awfully eager to judge.

Harmony, there is certainly a sad truth to this, although the tendency to judge is a bit of a universal. The desire for red ink and having others getting nipped are definitely elements that we as a religious people need to guard against.