"True" Churches

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_JAK
_Emeritus
Posts: 1593
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:04 pm

Re: "True" Churches

Post by _JAK »

GIMR wrote:One thing I have never understood is man's need to pervert what is good within faith by creating dogmatic divisions. The need to be "God's chosen", or be right, is the root of evil in the name of religion, in my opinion.

Why is it that people focus more on being right in relation to others than they do on being right within? Why is it that we need name-brand religion in the form of true churches and christian country clubs? Are human being so insecure?

I'm hoping that those who feel the need to be spiritually above others will cease to preach and just simply answer the question of why they feel the need to be right, so that others may understand.

I'm also hoping that this thread will get a few replies from various types of beliefs here. To me, they're all valuable.



What you call “dogmatic divisions” is a product of an increase in the number of people who could read, and perhaps most importantly the printing press which afforded the opportunity to read for the masses.

Given all the biblical contradictions and differing interpretations, each group (and there are many) perceived a need to develop its own doctrine. In doing so, each group attempted to distinguish itself from all the other groups. The invention of dogmas and doctrines actually began in the early stages of Christianity. Various schisms developed and groups of people became widely separated physically from other groups. That physical separation resulted in different ideas and inventions of religious (Christian) claims (doctrines).

The largest break resulting in more than 1,000 groups came following the protest of Martin Luther in 1517 CE. It was also at that time that the printing press began to make available the collection of books regarded as the Bible. People read. People came to different conclusions, emphasized different issues, and formed groups of their own or broke with previously formed groups.

Still addressing your first paragraph; in religion, people want to be right. Since religion relies on truth by assertion, the various groups could and did construct their own assertions about what was “true.” In so doing, they also directly or indirectly claimed beliefs which were different from theirs were wrong.

Hence, the true religion -- MINE, and the false religion -- OTHERS.

In your second paragraph, you point toward the concept of group-think. Nationalism is group-think. Membership (today) in clubs or organizations is group-think. People feel comfortable as they regard that their view matches the views of others. People like identification with others of similar perceptions.

Religion capitalizes on group-think and has generated groups. However, the group-think identification can be applied to wider scope than religion as I indicated in “nationalism.” Our tribal instincts are quite strong although we don’t generally perceive ourselves as tribal.

We still like war. We like the idea of defeating an enemy. Virtually every sport is a kind of war in which someone wins and someone looses. Or, if you prefer, some team wins and some team looses.

“Right in relation to others” (as you phrased) is still primarily right. People wish to think that they are right. (Agree with me, and you are right. Fail to agree with me, and you are wrong.)

We “need name-brand religion” (as you phrased) for the reasons which I have characterized. We like identification with a group. We also like to believe that we and our group are right as opposed to people from other tribes -- groups. It’s part of our biological evolution over thousands and tens of thousands of years.

Some group-think is “valuable” (as you phrased). However, we can make a strong case that much of it is harmful and dangerous. Since this is too long as it is, I’ll not detail that analysis here.


JAK
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

JAK... this is an excellent post!

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

liz3564 wrote:
Gaz wrote:What I do know is that the Blood of Cain was carried through the flood to stand as a witness of the events that transpired between Cains family and the wiles of Satan.


References???


From Mormon Doctrine:

Ham

Through Ham "the blood of the Canaanites was preserved" through the flood, he having married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain. (Abra. 1:20-27.) Ham was cursed, apparently for marrying into the forbidden lineage, and the effects of the curse passed to his son, Canaan. (Gen. 9:25) Ham's descendants include the Negroes, who originally were barred from holding the priesthood but have been able to do so since June, 1978.

Add to this the entry for Gentiles:

......The descendants of Noah's son Japheth were called Gentiles (Gen. 10:1-5), and in this sense the descendants of Shem (ancestor of Abraham) and of Ham (father of the negro race) would not be Gentiles. In the days of Abraham, the term was used to refer to those nations and peoples who had not descended from him, with the added assurance that all Gentiles who should receive the gospel would be adopted into the lineage of Abraham and be accounted his seed. (Abra. 2:9-11.).....

.....Having in mind the principle that Gentiles are adopted into the lineage of Israel when they accept the gospel, and that those who fail to believe the truths of salvation (no matter what their lineage) lose any preferential status they may have had, it is not inappropriate in our day to speak of members of the Church as Israelites and unbelievers as Gentiles.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_JAK
_Emeritus
Posts: 1593
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:04 pm

Protestants ONLY?

Post by _JAK »

Jersey Girl wrote:Gaz
After the second coming, will Hindus remain? Will Muslims remain? Will carved tribal Gods remain? Which of the Christian beliefs will remain? Catholic? Protestant? Jehovahs Witness?


The Protestants. Next question?

Jersey Girl
:-)


“The Protestants” only? Is that your view? Hence, you exclude Roman Catholics, by many centuries Christians before the Protestant Reformation (1517). Luther did not intend to precipitate that Protestant Reformation. Rather, he intended to reform the practices of the Roman Catholic Church which he regarded as wrong.

The result was not what Luther intended. Nevertheless, the Protestant Reformation gave rise to more than 1,000 denominations, sects, and cults (today) which not only disagree with the Roman Catholic Church but with one another. They are so disconnected from the Greek Orthodox Church (also Christian) that most have no genuine understanding of the historic evolution of Christianity over 2,000 years.

I presume from your “:-)” there is some jest in your comment.

All emerging or breaking away Christian groups following the 1517 CE Protestant Reformation are protesters in some way. As such and as they regard themselves as Christian, they are part (even if a small part) of the Protestant Reformation. That reformation continues today as start-up groups emerge, as televantelists gain wealth and influence, and as fracturing and splintering within various Protestant groups emerge/evolve.


JAK
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

Gazelam wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Gaz wrote:What I do know is that the Blood of Cain was carried through the flood to stand as a witness of the events that transpired between Cains family and the wiles of Satan.


References???


From Mormon Doctrine:

Ham

Through Ham "the blood of the Canaanites was preserved" through the flood, he having married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain. (Abra. 1:20-27.) Ham was cursed, apparently for marrying into the forbidden lineage, and the effects of the curse passed to his son, Canaan. (Gen. 9:25) Ham's descendants include the Negroes, who originally were barred from holding the priesthood but have been able to do so since June, 1978.

Add to this the entry for Gentiles:

......The descendants of Noah's son Japheth were called Gentiles (Gen. 10:1-5), and in this sense the descendants of Shem (ancestor of Abraham) and of Ham (father of the negro race) would not be Gentiles. In the days of Abraham, the term was used to refer to those nations and peoples who had not descended from him, with the added assurance that all Gentiles who should receive the gospel would be adopted into the lineage of Abraham and be accounted his seed. (Abra. 2:9-11.).....

.....Having in mind the principle that Gentiles are adopted into the lineage of Israel when they accept the gospel, and that those who fail to believe the truths of salvation (no matter what their lineage) lose any preferential status they may have had, it is not inappropriate in our day to speak of members of the Church as Israelites and unbelievers as Gentiles.


How is any of this reconciled with modern anthropology as to true human derivations? Is it simply ignored?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Post by _Sam Harris »

truth dancer wrote:
What I do know is that the Blood of Cain was carried through the flood to stand as a witness of the events that transpired between Cains family and the wiles of Satan.


I don't even know how to respond to this.

I think in all my years of interacting in the online LDS community this has got to be one of the most disgusting statement I have come across.

I understand this "doctrine" was taught, believed, considered true for many years in the LDS church. As sick and perverted as it was.

But most members today seem to have realized it was all garbage! Most members are at least uncomfortable with the very idea this was once doctrine.

I don't even think the brethren today would say such a thing and to be honest I think they would admit (behind closed doors) it is as nonsensical as it is cruel.

Gaz... with all due respect, I think you are holding onto some very cruel and unhealthy ideas from which the church is largely trying to distance itself.

I think you do yourself and the church a disservice by harboring such cruel beliefs ...

~dancer~

To my friend GIMR... I'm sorry there are still those who hold such cruel ideas.. It is heartbreaking to hear such %$#@ in this century by educated and "God-fearing" folks. :-(


TD, thank you. I don't think Gaz understands how painful and how damaging it can be to someone's self-esteem to be told that they are who they are because they're the descendant of the first murderer in existence.

Gaz isn't alone, though. Just before I left the church, at the time when I think I was trying the hardest to "make it work", I went to the church bookstore in my area, got a book I thought would help me spiritually, and ended up with the exact same thing that Gaz has been saying in print. It was very disturbing.

Luckily for me I'm stubborn, and refuse to believe that I'm anything less than a child of God just like everyone else.

Now let's all join hands and sing "We Are The World".... :P
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Re: "True" Churches

Post by _Sam Harris »

JAK wrote:
GIMR wrote:One thing I have never understood is man's need to pervert what is good within faith by creating dogmatic divisions. The need to be "God's chosen", or be right, is the root of evil in the name of religion, in my opinion.

Why is it that people focus more on being right in relation to others than they do on being right within? Why is it that we need name-brand religion in the form of true churches and christian country clubs? Are human being so insecure?

I'm hoping that those who feel the need to be spiritually above others will cease to preach and just simply answer the question of why they feel the need to be right, so that others may understand.

I'm also hoping that this thread will get a few replies from various types of beliefs here. To me, they're all valuable.



What you call “dogmatic divisions” is a product of an increase in the number of people who could read, and perhaps most importantly the printing press which afforded the opportunity to read for the masses.

Given all the biblical contradictions and differing interpretations, each group (and there are many) perceived a need to develop its own doctrine. In doing so, each group attempted to distinguish itself from all the other groups. The invention of dogmas and doctrines actually began in the early stages of Christianity. Various schisms developed and groups of people became widely separated physically from other groups. That physical separation resulted in different ideas and inventions of religious (Christian) claims (doctrines).

The largest break resulting in more than 1,000 groups came following the protest of Martin Luther in 1517 CE. It was also at that time that the printing press began to make available the collection of books regarded as the Bible. People read. People came to different conclusions, emphasized different issues, and formed groups of their own or broke with previously formed groups.

Still addressing your first paragraph; in religion, people want to be right. Since religion relies on truth by assertion, the various groups could and did construct their own assertions about what was “true.” In so doing, they also directly or indirectly claimed beliefs which were different from theirs were wrong.

Hence, the true religion -- MINE, and the false religion -- OTHERS.

In your second paragraph, you point toward the concept of group-think. Nationalism is group-think. Membership (today) in clubs or organizations is group-think. People feel comfortable as they regard that their view matches the views of others. People like identification with others of similar perceptions.

Religion capitalizes on group-think and has generated groups. However, the group-think identification can be applied to wider scope than religion as I indicated in “nationalism.” Our tribal instincts are quite strong although we don’t generally perceive ourselves as tribal.

We still like war. We like the idea of defeating an enemy. Virtually every sport is a kind of war in which someone wins and someone looses. Or, if you prefer, some team wins and some team looses.

“Right in relation to others” (as you phrased) is still primarily right. People wish to think that they are right. (Agree with me, and you are right. Fail to agree with me, and you are wrong.)

We “need name-brand religion” (as you phrased) for the reasons which I have characterized. We like identification with a group. We also like to believe that we and our group are right as opposed to people from other tribes -- groups. It’s part of our biological evolution over thousands and tens of thousands of years.

Some group-think is “valuable” (as you phrased). However, we can make a strong case that much of it is harmful and dangerous. Since this is too long as it is, I’ll not detail that analysis here.


JAK


I agree with TD, JAK, excellent post. I am aware of a great deal of the historical basis behind religious division, as you have described it here. I personally think that there was a time when people were a bit more active in their searches as to why they didn't agree with something. Luther had some cajones on him, you couldn't be a Catholic Priest back then and disagree with the establishment.

These days a lot of folk don't take the time to introspect past "am I safe?" in a spiritual sense. I see nothing wrong with community, and when people finish pushing people out of "heaven" religious diversity is a beautiful thing. I guess it just dismays me to see people telling other people in various ways that God doesn't love them or value them as much as he would if they belonged to a certain group or belief system. This really troubles me, I don't know why. But it does.

Perhaps I should put my ex's superman boxers back and stop trying to save the world. They fit him better anyway, and I have no use for that slot in the front. Makes me chilly...
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Post by _Sam Harris »

moksha wrote:
Gazelam wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Gaz wrote:What I do know is that the Blood of Cain was carried through the flood to stand as a witness of the events that transpired between Cains family and the wiles of Satan.


References???


From Mormon Doctrine:

Ham

Through Ham "the blood of the Canaanites was preserved" through the flood, he having married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain. (Abra. 1:20-27.) Ham was cursed, apparently for marrying into the forbidden lineage, and the effects of the curse passed to his son, Canaan. (Gen. 9:25) Ham's descendants include the Negroes, who originally were barred from holding the priesthood but have been able to do so since June, 1978.

Add to this the entry for Gentiles:

......The descendants of Noah's son Japheth were called Gentiles (Gen. 10:1-5), and in this sense the descendants of Shem (ancestor of Abraham) and of Ham (father of the negro race) would not be Gentiles. In the days of Abraham, the term was used to refer to those nations and peoples who had not descended from him, with the added assurance that all Gentiles who should receive the gospel would be adopted into the lineage of Abraham and be accounted his seed. (Abra. 2:9-11.).....

.....Having in mind the principle that Gentiles are adopted into the lineage of Israel when they accept the gospel, and that those who fail to believe the truths of salvation (no matter what their lineage) lose any preferential status they may have had, it is not inappropriate in our day to speak of members of the Church as Israelites and unbelievers as Gentiles.


How is any of this reconciled with modern anthropology as to true human derivations? Is it simply ignored?


Yes, it has to be. The church can never be wrong, even if it means that such teachings which do damage those about whom they speak continue. Gaz is not on the recieving end of this so he does not understand.

If you take the Bible alone on this issue, it doesn't stand. And if I do recall, I did a thread on this issue months and months ago, to which Coggins and BCSpace could only reply with taunts that I was mental.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_bcspace
_Emeritus
Posts: 18534
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Post by _bcspace »

If you take the Bible alone on this issue, it doesn't stand. And if I do recall, I did a thread on this issue months and months ago, to which Coggins and BCSpace could only reply with taunts that I was mental.


Actually, as I recall, you could provide nothing to back up your claims whereas I provided evidence (which you promptly failed to address).
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

GIMR wrote:
moksha wrote: How is any of this reconciled with modern anthropology as to true human derivations? Is it simply ignored?


Yes, it has to be. The church can never be wrong...


It doesn't have to be made wrong, these past understandings which caused unfortunate suffering, can just be held as outmoded allegory and we can move on from that point to a truer and more beneficial understanding of both Man and God.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
Post Reply