Tal Bachman wrote:One horrible, unbecoming question:
Why do people on here continue trying to reason with Wade Englund? No doubt he's a nice fellow, but...reasoning with him? "Debating" him? Isn't that like the Patriots running up the score against the JV squad they're scrimmaging against? Why is it that every thread ends up being about how Wade Englund doesn't know what he's talking about? Aren't we already all clear on that?
I'm voting to let Wade be; from what I understand of his personal travails, he seems like he could use all the peace he can get.
Just my two/tenths of a cent, Tal
Actually, those on this board who are capable of reasoning, and have attempted to reason with me, have been successful in reasoning with me (though we may not always completely agree). Please don't project your own intellectual inadequecies onto other participants here, including me. That would be...well...irrational--not that you may be able to help it. ;-)
Tal Bachman wrote:But perhaps, in Brother Englund's case, that is very much for the best. Who knows what kind of life he would be living, were it not for the identity, companionship, purpose, sense of moral certainty, broad social net, etc., he finds within Mormonism? For example, I suspect that not even Wade himself spends much time contemplating what sorts of (random, anonymous, possibly fatal?) acts he may have committed had he never felt obligated to abide by certain Mormon commandments.
In a way this is correct. Unlike Tal, the thought never crossed my mind that I would be willing to kill non-members were my mission president to command it. In fact, I find such thoughts utterly repulsive. But, that may be because I am more than a bit different as a member than Tal was--and to think people view the Church as monolithic. ;-)
Tal Bachman wrote:One horrible, unbecoming question:
Why do people on here continue trying to reason with Wade Englund? No doubt he's a nice fellow, but...reasoning with him? "Debating" him? Isn't that like the Patriots running up the score against the JV squad they're scrimmaging against? Why is it that every thread ends up being about how Wade Englund doesn't know what he's talking about? Aren't we already all clear on that?
I'm voting to let Wade be; from what I understand of his personal travails, he seems like he could use all the peace he can get.
Just my two/tenths of a cent,
Tal
Oh come now...I've been able to reason with Wade from time to time...It's not easy, but it can be done.
I am surprised Hitchens was able to crawl out of the bottle long enough to write a book to air his vituperations. In any event, I suspect his book is as pedestrian as those of Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, and whoever else may disembark from the clown car.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei
(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
I've always been 'tired' of Evangelical Atheism - if Evangelical Atheism is taken to mean the desire to convert everyone to atheism. (Which I know does apply to some of the people being mentioned - and I don't agree with them on this point). That's certainly not my MO. I'm also not against irrational / dogmatic thinking 'per se'.
I'm against irrational / dogmatic thinking that finds it's way into law. Or any way that affects others against their will.
If personal belief was just that - personal - then I would have no quarrel with it.
But I also don't beleive that 'evangelical' atheism generally correlates with other forms of religious evangelism.
I'm not generally aware of atheists out knocking on doors, two by two. Nor am I aware of atheists purposefully camping outside the meeting places of those who differ in belief from them, Darwin and Dawkins in hand - yelling from soap-boxes.
Yes, atheists go on chat shows. Yes, atheists write books. Yes, atheists dare to speak in public! But I think the religious still have the corner on getting into the faces of others.
It seems to me that - certainly in the USA - just making a clear, unadulterated and indeed passionate case for atheism is somehow de facto extreme.
...well, I deny that atheism is in fact extreme at all. And perhaps that's why I'm always surprised when people seem to find it in some way 'extreme' that I label myself as such.
EDIT: To be very clear, I am an agnostic atheist. Just as anybody who 'beleives' in God but doesn't 'know' that God exists is an agnostic theist. The 'agnostic' qualifier seems to be a very important detail to some theists - even though they often don't seem to find it that relavent to theists themselves, for some bizarre reason. Apparently 'theism' - in and of itself - isn't 'extreme' in any meaningful way... *shrug*
Points well taken on the heroin/LDS church comparison. I wasn't actually trying to indicate that a church addiction was as bad as a heroin addiction. I was just trying to make the point that one is likely better off without it.
It can't be stressed enough that casting aside your delusions is a painful process, but it's worth it. Nothing worth having is ever easy.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Some Schmo wrote:Points well taken on the heroin/LDS church comparison. I wasn't actually trying to indicate that a church addiction was as bad as a heroin addiction. I was just trying to make the point that one is likely better off without it.
It can't be stressed enough that casting aside your delusions is a painful process, but it's worth it. Nothing worth having is ever easy.
I have to agree with you there. The church was at the core of everything I did. In my subconscious, every decision I made was somehow influenced by the church. It was such a deeply ingrained part of myself, that to leave it was an extremely painful process. But I am SOOO much more at peace with myself now.
I have to agree with you there. The church was at the core of everything I did. In my subconscious, every decision I made was somehow influenced by the church. It was such a deeply ingrained part of myself, that to leave it was an extremely painful process. But I am SOOO much more at peace with myself now.
Kinda like the kid whos running home clicking his heels as hes released from school to summer vacation? Hes not learnign any lessons, but boy does he feel free from responsibility!
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
I have to agree with you there. The church was at the core of everything I did. In my subconscious, every decision I made was somehow influenced by the church. It was such a deeply ingrained part of myself, that to leave it was an extremely painful process. But I am SOOO much more at peace with myself now.
Kinda like the kid whos running home clicking his heels as he's released from school to summer vacation? he's not learnign any lessons, but boy does he feel free from responsibility!
No kinda like the kid who matures and grows into a self responsible adult.
Perhaps you are still immature Gaz and need supervision. Perhaps you couldn't handle life without being told what to do and think.
I have to agree with you there. The church was at the core of everything I did. In my subconscious, every decision I made was somehow influenced by the church. It was such a deeply ingrained part of myself, that to leave it was an extremely painful process. But I am SOOO much more at peace with myself now.
Kinda like the kid whos running home clicking his heels as he's released from school to summer vacation? he's not learnign any lessons, but boy does he feel free from responsibility!
Who says he's not learning any lessons? Not all the classrooms are in schools. And now he can go to the library on his own and get the books he wants instead of the ones classified as appropriate for his age/grade. (NB: my grade school librarian did not do this much to the consternation of some of the teachers.)
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."