huckelberry wrote:Trevor, your comments about the atonement reflect something which at least to my mind is a Mormon teaching which influences people who leave the church long after they leave due to its emotional attraction. What I am thinking of is the idea that we are naturally connected to God as children and species. In that view the fall into sin is almost like an experiment that is less than our real self. Forgiveness should be easier because we are really better than our errors. If one sets those assumptions aside and think of people as creations, animals who are in the process of becoming something more than chimpanzees then our turn toward sin is what we really are. More than forgivenses is needed we need to actually become something different. In my mind the atonement is the one thing in Christianity which makes the most sense and is the only reason to consider the faith. But the atonement is much more than a legal trick establishing an out for divine spiritys temporarily caught in sin. It is the foundation for participating in the divine community and thus growing into something more and better than the fighting primates we naturally are. It is in the process of sharing forgiivenss with our community that we can become something more. I do see that as happending at one time to special individuals. It si something which the entire human race is particpating in. It is something to my view which in the context of atonement all the variety of humans can contiribute some to the the whole.
Those are interesting thoughts. I need to think about them a while. I am not sure that 'fighting primates' is a description that totally does the human species justice, but I think that lifting one's sights to greater things can be beneficial.
I used to subscribe to the "it makes too much sense" view point, but I largely agree with Beastie that you can only take it so far. For example, the idea that all children under 8 who die go straight to the CK makes sense and feels good, until you recognize that it really it isn't fair if life is this test that only happens once and that some get a fast ticket to the CK while other struggle and fight, and may only make the Terr Kingdom. I agree that the general structure "makes sense" and "feels good", but only if you don't take any particular point too far.
And we act like the church day is something that Joseph put together when he was 14. The church was very different throughout his lifetime, and and the church he left then is very different from what it is now. Well intentioned good people can do wonders with what they have, and the organization we have today is product of millions of peoples efforts. So yes, while Joseph started the ball rolling, he can't be fully credited for how organized the welfare system works today. And I would imagine the JW's and 7th day adventists, and Catholic church with all its charities are very well organized too. Doesn't necessarily mean they are divine.
“A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take away everything that you have.”
"fighting primates", well that is a pretty narrow description isn't it.
I am happy we all do much more than just fight. I can see all of our activities as something that other primates do. However there are obvious things we do in a manner many magnitudes more effectively than other primates. It is quite an adventure we have embarked on. I think that is marvelous and well worth the commitment whether there is ,or is not a divine dimension involved.