Other Religious Forgeries

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
Lem
God
Posts: 2456
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:46 am

Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by Lem »

Symmachus wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:07 pm
....Yes, and I think that is why Jenkins's exchange with Hamblin was so devastating: just give us one corroborating piece of material evidence and we can go from there. But they've got nothing beyond their flimsy contraption of anachronistic and contradictory parallels that are held together by their very questionable presuppositions—and even that glue lacks sufficient consistency to keep it together.
Reading the NYT article (purely as an amateur!), I thought the comments regarding epigraphy were quite interesting, and showed another aspect of your point about problems with presuppositions:
Then, in June 2019, came a trial by fire, when nearly a dozen leading scholars from around the world were invited to Harvard Law School to hear him present his research at a confidential seminar organized by Feldman.

It was more collegial than Clermont-Ganneau’s ambush at the British Museum. But it was still a tough crowd. “There was a lot of pushback, rejection, counterarguments and even mockery,” Pat-El, the University of Texas linguist, said.

Dershowitz recalled being barraged by critique after critique. But by the end of the day, a divide had opened.

“Among Bible scholars, who study the evolution of the text, the emergent position was, ‘These can’t be forgeries,’” he said. “But the epigraphers all said, ‘This can’t be real.’”

Epigraphers are experts in inscriptions, with a focus on letter forms and other material aspects of an artifact. They are usually the ones called in to authenticate — or more often, debunk — artifacts, usually with the help of carbon-dating and infrared imaging.
But then I read Dershowitz' response.
In his paper, published in the journal Zeitschrift für die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft (The Journal for Old Testament Research), Dershowitz responds to some of the epigraphers’ objections. He offers microscopic analysis of various letter forms: Are they leaning left? Or right? But he also asks another question: Why do we assume that the 19th-century drawings — which, as he notes, sometimes contradict each other — are reliable visual representations of the letter forms to begin with?
That's disappointing. The only epigraphical information available points to a forgery, and the response is: what if the information is wrong because sometimes the drawings were inaccurate? And apparently, inaccurate in exactly the way necessary to cause an evaluator to incorrectly interpret the specific error as a forgery instead of as the real thing?

Adding that layer and moving the analysis one step further from the original seems a little convenient, notwithstanding the very nebulous comment about drawings contradicting each other (which drawings? Where? What differences?) Maybe he spells it out better in his article, but simply stating that this new hypothesis (errors in copying) favors the conclusion being searched for makes it even more suspect as a legitimate argument. One could just as easily argue that copiers of the stroke marks were extremely careful to reproduce the best copy possible. Speaking only as a nonprofessional in the industry, in my opinion it feels as though someone who says the people who do this for a living actually created changed copies, copies that ever so conveniently show the source is a forgery when its not, sounds a little too much like a lazy conspiracy theory.

Again, this is not my area, so I would welcome any correction from the experts.
mentalgymnast
1st Counselor
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:29 pm

Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by mentalgymnast »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:02 pm
Dr. Exiled,

Before you get sucked into yet another mg exercise in mental masturbation because eXpAnDiNg My hOriZoNs please give this Lemmie-provided thread a quick once over:

http://mormondiscussions.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47259

- Doc
Yeah, the thread where you said:

I'd insult you, but you exist and that's insulting enough for everyone.
It’s difficult to have a conversation with you when you express yourself in this way. But yes, feel free Dr. Exiled or anyone else to go back and read the thread which has been linked to. You will find that I take a position contrary to Doctor CamNC4Me. He doesn’t like that. So he resorts to polemics to bully and hurt others.

Truth be told, he doesn’t represent atheists very well.

Regards,
MG
mentalgymnast
1st Counselor
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:29 pm

Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by mentalgymnast »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:38 pm
mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:56 pm


OK. So this is Option 1. Two questions:

Question 1. How would this scenario have taken place back in Joseph Smith’s day?
Question 2. Wouldn’t the restoration have to have been delayed for close to another couple hundred years?

Other options/answers to my queries to DrStakhanovite and Kishkumen?

If not plates, then...what?

Regards,
MG
You don't think God could have gone from country to country at any time, gathering the crowds, making speeches, having the words written down? That isn't possible? It had to be plates that weren't even used to make the Bible like story about a people that left no traces of their existence? Under the Mormon view God is a horrible communicator and then to add insult to injury, he makes the people rely on a small group of old men and communicates through feelings, supposedly, feelings that could be used to convince anyone of almost anything. Surely, if the Mormon God loved his children or existed, he wouldn't leave so much up to the chance of miscommunication.
OK. This is one point of view. Thanks for your thoughts. I hope to hear from DrStakhanovite and Kishkumen in regards to my questions in my original post, but we’ll see. Personally, I don’t see a better way of transmitting information down through the ages than on something very durable. Plates fit the bill.

That may be why some folks spend so much time trying to destroy any possibility of ancient plates having been in Joseph Smith’s hands. Plates actually make sense. And it’s interesting that of all the stories Joseph could have concocted as to the production of the Book of Mormon he came up with plates of all things.

Anyway, I don’t expect to get much reaction/response to the questions I posted earlier, but I wanted to put them out there anyway...for posterity. 😉

I think that plates, being integral to the Book of Mormon story, add flair to the narrative. And more than that, I think it is another ‘hit’ by Joseph. One of many.

Plates? C’mon. 🙂 Who woulda thought?

Regards,
MG
mentalgymnast
1st Counselor
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:29 pm

Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by mentalgymnast »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:42 pm
DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:05 pm


I take the Book of Mormon seriously in the sense that it is considered divinely inspired by a large group of people and have no problem seeing it categorized with the Hebrew Bible, New Testament, Qur’an, Baháʼí scriptures, etc, etc. I think close study of the Book of Mormon can be equally rewarding for Mormon and Non-Mormon alike, regardless of beliefs about the book’s origins.
OK. I’m of the same mind.
DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:05 pm
Now if you want the Book of Mormon to be treated as an ancient document then people are going to need more than a text written in 19th century English, ideally some kind of vorlage that predates Joseph Smith. We are also going to want a material culture that was capable of producing alloyed plates with engravings on them, along with information about the languages employed by this literate culture, even if the language is incomprehensible and unable to be translated.
Not going to argue with that. Although I’m unsure about the alloyed plates.
DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:05 pm
What would it take for me to believe a modern (or ancient) text was divinely inspired? I don’t know. I’m not really confident that if God existed that would be their chosen method of communication.
In order for information to be transmitted uniformly it would have to be in a permanent written form. Even if God used flash technology or some other super-dee-duper way of communicating, it would essentially have to come to us as text. What’s the alternative?

Plates actually sound like a good way to transmit information from an ancient culture to our flash technology culture. Better than paper or other media that deteriorates over time.
DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:05 pm
I’ve yet to come across a compelling reason to believe that God would even use language as we understand it today.
Yeah, but then we wouldn’t understand it now, would we? 😉

Seems like He’d have to communicate with us in our language.

Regards,
MG
*bump
mentalgymnast
1st Counselor
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:29 pm

Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by mentalgymnast »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:21 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:38 pm
I think in the case of the Book of Mormon it is not an overstatement to say that, barring some unforeseen corroborating discovery, the lack of the plates leaves the question of the Book of Mormon's authenticity as an ancient text comfortably in the category of forgery.
Hi Kishkumen, would you be willing to respond to the questions I posed in my post to DrStakhanovite? Maybe he’ll respond, but I’d be interested in your thoughts.
mentalgymnast wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:02 pm

If you, DrStakhanovite, were to take a purported scriptural record appearing in our day seriously, what would be the acceptable means by which that record would appear? And just for kicks, let’s say that the record is also from God.

DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:05 pm
What would it take for me to believe a modern (or ancient) text was divinely inspired? I don’t know. I’m not really confident that if God existed that would be their chosen method of communication.
mentalgymnast wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:02 pm

In order for information to be transmitted uniformly it would have to be in a permanent written form. Even if God used flash technology or some other super-dee-duper way of communicating, it would essentially have to come to us as text. What’s the alternative?

Plates actually sound like a good way to transmit information from an ancient culture to our flash technology culture. Better than paper or other media that deteriorates over time.
DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:05 pm
I’ve yet to come across a compelling reason to believe that God would even use language as we understand it today.
mentalgymnast wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:02 pm
Yeah, but then we wouldn’t understand it now, would we? 😉

Seems like He’d have to communicate with us in our language.
My questions are highlighted. And they are posed with the hypothetical that there were no plates, although in my post I did express my preference for plates.

Regards,
MG
*bump
Dr Exiled
God
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:40 pm

Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by Dr Exiled »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:59 pm
Dr Exiled wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:38 pm


You don't think God could have gone from country to country at any time, gathering the crowds, making speeches, having the words written down? That isn't possible? It had to be plates that weren't even used to make the Bible like story about a people that left no traces of their existence? Under the Mormon view God is a horrible communicator and then to add insult to injury, he makes the people rely on a small group of old men and communicates through feelings, supposedly, feelings that could be used to convince anyone of almost anything. Surely, if the Mormon God loved his children or existed, he wouldn't leave so much up to the chance of miscommunication.
OK. This is one point of view. Thanks for your thoughts. I hope to hear from DrStakhanovite and Kishkumen in regards to my questions in my original post, but we’ll see. Personally, I don’t see a better way of transmitting information down through the ages than on something very durable. Plates fit the bill.

That may be why some folks spend so much time trying to destroy any possibility of ancient plates having been in Joseph Smith’s hands. Plates actually make sense. And it’s interesting that of all the stories Joseph could have concocted as to the production of the Book of Mormon he came up with plates of all things.

Anyway, I don’t expect to get much reaction/response to the questions I posted earlier, but I wanted to put them out there anyway...for posterity. 😉

I think that plates, being integral to the Book of Mormon story, add flair to the narrative. And more than that, I think it is another ‘hit’ by Joseph. One of many.

Plates? C’mon. 🙂 Who woulda thought?

Regards,
MG
1. I think having God give periodic speeches around the world would be better than having plates as far as transmitting information.

2. Nice strawman. People aren't desperate to destroy the plates' existence as you claim. The story does that for them so they don't have to. He didn't use the plates when he concocted the book showing that they weren't necessary for transmitting information as you say and were merely a prop in his rock & hat magic show.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 9682
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

I'm starting to think mg is legitimately retarded. This issue has been addressed hundreds of times ad nauseam and he still pops in with his loopy crap like he's never bothered to read a single well-sourced argument that puts to rest the lie of the plates. It's like there's a short circuit in his dumb damned skull that resets to the 'claim' part of the argument. Nothing sticks with this damned fool. He's absolutely impervious to facts, reason, putting two and two together, whatever. It's just a continuous reset to his default position that the manufactured history of the cult is the truth and he sets about testimonkeying as much as possible. If you ever want to see what a brainwashed cult member looks like he's damned it.

- Doc
Donald Trump doesn’t know who is third in line for the Presidency.
mentalgymnast
1st Counselor
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:29 pm

Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by mentalgymnast »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:12 am
I'm starting to think mg is legitimately retarded. This issue has been addressed hundreds of times ad nauseam and he still pops in with his loopy Crap like he's never bothered to read a single well-sourced argument that puts to rest the lie of the plates. It's like there's a short circuit in his dumb stupid skull that resets to the 'claim' part of the argument. Nothing sticks with this stupid fool. He's absolutely impervious to facts, reason, putting two and two together, whatever. It's just a continuous reset to his default position that the manufactured history of the cult is the truth and he sets about testimonkeying as much as possible. If you ever want to see what a brainwashed cult member looks like he's stupid it.

- Doc
Lies and damned lies.

Enough of you...scoundrel.

What a cesspool.

MG
User avatar
DrStakhanovite
Elder
Posts: 350
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:55 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by DrStakhanovite »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:42 pm
In order for information to be transmitted uniformly it would have to be in a permanent written form. Even if God used flash technology or some other super-dee-duper way of communicating, it would essentially have to come to us as text. What’s the alternative?
Imagine looking at a distant star that “twinkles” in a uniform fashion, upon investigation it is discovered that the twinkling is actually a form of binary code that communicates important mathematical truths humanity that we, at the present moment, are struggling with. Because of the public nature of the transmission, anyone with ability to observe the star can compare their notes, and clarity of the message (i.e. proofs) would quickly establish a consensus.

Performing such a feat would be beyond our comprehension and would seem appropriately “Godlike” while at the same time keeping it rather free from human tampering compared to the transmission of sacred texts.
mentalgymnast wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:42 pm
Yeah, but then we wouldn’t understand it now, would we? Seems like He’d have to communicate with us in our language.
Language is unique to humans, but it does not exhaust communication.
Image
Fence Sitter
Bishop
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:02 am

Re: Other Religious Forgeries

Post by Fence Sitter »

DrStakhanovite wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:36 am
Imagine looking at a distant star that “twinkles” in a uniform fashion, upon investigation it is discovered that the twinkling is actually a form of binary code that communicates important mathematical truths humanity that we, at the present moment, are struggling with. Because of the public nature of the transmission, anyone with ability to observe the star can compare their notes, and clarity of the message (i.e. proofs) would quickly establish a consensus.

Performing such a feat would be beyond our comprehension and would seem appropriately “Godlike” while at the same time keeping it rather free from human tampering compared to the transmission of sacred texts.
Greetings Stak!

Funny you should mention such a thought. Scientist in 2015 actually recorded the pulsar star Geminga doing that very thing. Here is the message it produced.
01000100 01101111 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01110110 01101111 01110100 01100101 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01010100 01110010 01110101 01101101 01110000 00101110


If only we had listened.
Post Reply