Peterson gets politely taken to the woodshed on the reliability and importance of witnesses...

[Kishkumen]

Exactly right. There is no way the witnesses could possibly have known the plates were about Nephites and Lamanites anymore than anything ever discovered anywhere on our entire planet have to do with any supposed Nephites or Lamanites, other than someone saying it is Nephite, whatever that might mean. They are simply regurgitating what Joseph Smith told them was on the plates.

Bingo!

And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates and the engravings thereon.

And they weren’t even told the angel’s name!

[Dr Moore]

And they weren’t even told the angel’s name!

Mind blown, what an obvious missing detail.

[Philo Sofee]

That angel should have at least introduced himself... I go with Metatron because he is my all time favorite angel in the Zohar (though not the most prominant).... if Metatron was as involved in the Restoration as he was in Judaism that would be a HUGE deal........although I know of no early Mormons who ever even mentioned him, let alone knew he existed.

[Doctor Steuss]

Dupe.

[Doctor Steuss]

That angel should have at least introduced himself... I go with Metatron because he is my all time favorite angel in the Zohar (though not the most prominant).... if Metatron was as involved in the Restoration as he was in Judaism that would be a HUGE deal........although I know of no early Mormons who ever even mentioned him, let alone knew he existed.

Dunno, if they would have gone with someone obscure, like Uzi, it would've provided a nice little Enochian parallel to tie in with the Book of Moses later. Plus... Uzi, man.

Instead, apologists got a flaming sword to the knees.

[Doctor Steuss]

Dupe.

Today, I am hogging all of the stupid. It's leaking everywhere.

[Lem]

Exactly right. There is no way the witnesses could possibly have known the plates were about Nephites and Lamanites anymore than anything ever discovered anywhere on our entire planet have to do with any supposed Nephites or Lamanites, other than someone saying it is Nephite, whatever that might mean. They are simply regurgitating what Joseph Smith told them was on the plates.

That's why I think Peterson is really shooting himself in the foot with his increasingly detailed posts on the specific attributes of witnesses' accounts that can actually be taken as evidence. He's hurting his witness' testimony more than he's helping.

also, did you see the film festival article where the Witnesses Director said they took 'artistic license' with some scenes? How on earth can Peterson claim his movie about witnesses is completely factual when the Directors say it is fictionalized??

[Philo Sofee]

Exactly right. There is no way the witnesses could possibly have known the plates were about Nephites and Lamanites anymore than anything ever discovered anywhere on our entire planet have to do with any supposed Nephites or Lamanites, other than someone saying it is Nephite, whatever that might mean. They are simply regurgitating what Joseph Smith told them was on the plates.

That's why I think Peterson is really shooting himself in the foot with his increasingly detailed posts on the specific attributes of witnesses' accounts that can actually be taken as evidence. He's hurting his witness' testimony more than he's helping.

also, did you see the film festival article where the Witnesses Director said they took 'artistic license' with some scenes? How on earth can Peterson claim his movie about witnesses is completely factual when the Directors say it is fictionalized??

My guess, is because with Mormonism it is never about actual historical truth, it is about improving faith, increasing testimony, and if history is a casualty of the process, the loss is histories loss, not Mormonism's. History just is not a friend to Mormonism. I have noticed that through the years, and Mormonism is no friend of history either, though lip service is certainly paid to it. But if they can't twist it into some kind of authenticity angle for their own views, they imagine it is the enemy. It is so silly, but when stuff is invented and cannot possibly fit actual historic truth, then history has to give ground. Anti's end up being the truth tellers ironical as all get out, and Mormonism ends up being the liars for truth, more deeply ironic than the former irony. It is this that helped me move away from its defense.

They can't tell the truth, it damns them. The irony, again, the IRONY of this is amazing... so if only false reinterpretations is all they have, they are truly bankrupt. It is an astonishing thing when one really ponders that.... and there appears to be no way out.