Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

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_Thama
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Re: Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

Post by _Thama »

Equality wrote:What I find fascinating about the Meldrum situation is that we don't have a case of a crackpot believer claiming some revelation that is clearly at odds with established doctrine. Just the opposite is true. His personal "revelation" is simply confirming the things taught by all the prophets from Joseph Smith to Gordon B. Hinckley (Tommy Boy has yet to weigh in, I think). So the usual refrain of "personal revelation must be measured against the scriptures and the prophets" doesn't work. At the same time, if the apologists tried to claim revelation for their ideas, they would be going against established doctrine. That's the beauty of it, really. It just puts into such stark relief the fact that the apologists are the ones out of step with Mormon doctrine. You can't really believe literally in the LDS scriptures and the prophets and at the same time believe in science. That's the great dissonant fact that apologists just can't seem to face squarely.


You can't believe in all of the prophets at the same time either, nor have their revelations been internally consistent. Certainly the Meldrum hypothesis is in line with what was taught in the early Church and by fundamentalists like Joseph Fielding Smith, but I never once heard Hinckley commit himself to a specific geography... he was a smart fellow.

Mormon doctrine is a very pliable material, and it is shifting slowly toward the apologists.
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_harmony
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Re: Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

Post by _harmony »

But don't you see the same sort of thing in business all the time?

Let's assume a nationwide company with thousands of local stores, like Walmart. A local employee works diligently day after day, and notices that one of the basic tenets of the business could be tweaked a little bit and the store would run much more efficiently. She develops the idea and presents it to her store manager, who immediately squashes it, because the local employee has no standing as someone that management would listen to. Only if the local employee's ideas are heard and respected will the company grow (which is one of the reasons why Walmart is so huge. All the Walmarts I've ever worked with take the ideas of their employees seriously.)

It's about being an outsider. Even though the idea/revelation might be valid, if you don't have the standing of being an insider, your idea is tossed aside. We've seen it time and again. Only rarely does the idea actually get examined and accepted on its merits alone... and that is a company that will likely succeed.

The church's problem, and it's manifest in its stodginess and poor management decisions, is that it accepts no "revelation" from anyone but a selected few old white men with a very narrow world view and limited life experience. There is no Suggestion Box in every ward foyer where they can get local input into both local and global church issues. No one can successfully run a worldwide church under those conditions in the long run. God doesn't talk to men whose ears are closed because they think they know it all already; he talks to people who will listen. Baptism numbers are falling, exits are increasing, stakes are being combined not split.

Conference is less than a month away. We'll no doubt get talks on tithing, obedience, sacrifice, the evils of the world (homosexuality, women who work outside the home, pornography), but I doubt we'll get any talk that asks the members for suggestions and we certainly won't be told they're sending out a survey to all members asking them for input.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Equality
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Re: Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

Post by _Equality »

harmony wrote:But don't you see the same sort of thing in business all the time?

Let's assume a nationwide company with thousands of local stores, like Walmart. A local employee works diligently day after day, and notices that one of the basic tenets of the business could be tweaked a little bit and the store would run much more efficiently. She develops the idea and presents it to her store manager, who immediately squashes it, because the local employee has no standing as someone that management would listen to. Only if the local employee's ideas are heard and respected will the company grow (which is one of the reasons why Walmart is so huge. All the Walmarts I've ever worked with take the ideas of their employees seriously.)

It's about being an outsider. Even though the idea/revelation might be valid, if you don't have the standing of being an insider, your idea is tossed aside. We've seen it time and again. Only rarely does the idea actually get examined and accepted on its merits alone... and that is a company that will likely succeed.

The church's problem, and it's manifest in its stodginess and poor management decisions, is that it accepts no "revelation" from anyone but a selected few old white men with a very narrow world view and limited life experience. There is no Suggestion Box in every ward foyer where they can get local input into both local and global church issues. No one can successfully run a worldwide church under those conditions in the long run. God doesn't talk to men whose ears are closed because they think they know it all already; he talks to people who will listen. Baptism numbers are falling, exits are increasing, stakes are being combined not split.

Conference is less than a month away. We'll no doubt get talks on tithing, obedience, sacrifice, the evils of the world (homosexuality, women who work outside the home, pornography), but I doubt we'll get any talk that asks the members for suggestions and we certainly won't be told they're sending out a survey to all members asking them for input.


You are right, harmony. It reminds me of that FedEx commercial where they are sitting around the table asking for ideas. The schlubby guy mentions using FedEx to cut costs and everyone just sits there staring blankly. Then the executive guy leading the meeting suggests the same thing and everyone nods in approval. The only difference was the executive guy made a powerful hand gesture while stating the idea (and he was wearing a nice suit).
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_Equality
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Re: Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

Post by _Equality »

Thama wrote:but I never once heard Hinckley commit himself to a specific geography... he was a smart fellow.

Mormon doctrine is a very pliable material, and it is shifting slowly toward the apologists.


Hinckley did commit himself on the Lamanite question, which by implication entails a commitment to a hemispheric model. I think he may also have been in the FP when the infamous letter on the Hill Cumorah was sent. I'd have to look for it, though. Hinckley gave many a temple dedicatory prayer in which he referred to the people of South America, Central America, and the Pacific Isles as descendants of Book of Mormon peoples (i.e., Lamanites). He also made clear, unequivocal statements in General Conference in support of the idea of a global flood in which only 8 humans survived.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_dblagent007
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Re: Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

Post by _dblagent007 »

Sethbag, the idea that Mormons are generally skeptical of other Mormons' revelation claims is somewhat unremarkable. When I was at BYU, revelation was often claimed as the reason a dashing young maiden should marry some man. Funny, but the women didn't seem to believe in these revelations.

Mormons don't have to believe every relevation claim from fellow Mormons to believe that personal revelation exists and is real. My MIL claimed that God told her to have her breasts enlarged (no lie), which she did. Must I believe that God inspired her to enlarge her bosom in order to believe that I and others can receive personal revelation is real? I don't think so.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Chap
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Re: Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

Post by _Chap »

dblagent007 wrote: Mormons don't have to believe every relevation claim from fellow Mormons to believe that personal revelation exists and is real.


dblagent007's report of the state of mind of the average LDS on this question may be correct. Let us assume that it is.

But that does little to answer the pressing question on this topic, which is:

How on earth does an LDS (Mr A) decide whether a revelation claimed by another LDS (Mr B) is a real revelation or not - apart from relying on whether it seems to Mr A to make sense, which seems to be the only criterion dblagent007 is applying here?

And if that really is how other people's revelations are to be judged, how about one's own?
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_dblagent007
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Re: Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

Post by _dblagent007 »

Chap wrote:
dblagent007 wrote: Mormons don't have to believe every relevation claim from fellow Mormons to believe that personal revelation exists and is real.


dblagent007's report of the state of mind of the average LDS on this question may be correct. Let us assume that it is.

But that does little to answer the pressing question on this topic, which is:

How on earth does an LDS (Mr A) decide whether a revelation claimed by another LDS (Mr B) is a real revelation or not - apart from relying on whether it seems to Mr A to make sense, which seems to be the only criterion dblagent007 is applying here?

And if that really is how other people's revelations are to be judged, how about one's own?

Mormons receive revelation through the Holy Ghost. I think the process is fairly well known. This process is used to know whether some other person's revelations are true and to know whether you have received an actual revelation.

The process of receiving revelation takes no small amount of effort. For this reason, I think most Mormons forego trying to determine whether some other member's claimed revelations are real. I think most Mormons simply apply the "does this smell funny" test, come to a conclusory conclusion, and move on.

Maybe my MIL's big bosoms were pure inspiration (I think my FIL thought so), but I'm skeptical. I have no intention of actually finding out since the answer doesn't matter to me (this assumes that God would even tell me, since it is really has nothing to do with me).
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

Post by _Dr. Shades »

dblagent007 wrote:When I was at BYU, revelation was often claimed as the reason a dashing young maiden should marry some man. Funny, but the women didn't seem to believe in these revelations.


Then why did it work so well for Joseph Smith?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

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_truth dancer
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Re: Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

Post by _truth dancer »

I recently read a blog by a Xed but believing member of the FLDS; a "best friend" of Warren Jeffs.

He sounded like your typical LDS apologist... if people would only pray and obey and soften their heart, etc. etc. etc., they would know by the power of the HG that their gospel was true and that they are led by Christ.

When someone can figure out how to tell the difference between the HG and personal intuition/ideas/desires/wants/needs, then maybe the HG would be the way to go.

Until then it seems to just add to the confusion and messiness of religious beliefs.

What is most interesting is that this issue (of a very unreliable HG), is pretty much ignored by apologists. They hold the HG as the ultimate source of testimony and truth but (as far as I know), do not address the issue at all.

Actually to be fair, I have heard some apologists claim that those with differing beliefs are able to get inspiration but it is not necessarily true, or that they are limited in understanding truth, etc. etc.

The problem is, everyone who claims they are receiving revelation and inspiration believe they are the special ones with the real truth.

~td~
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_Chap
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Re: Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

Post by _Chap »

dblagent007 wrote:The process of receiving revelation takes no small amount of effort. For this reason, I think most Mormons forego trying to determine whether some other member's claimed revelations are real. I think most Mormons simply apply the "does this smell funny" test, come to a conclusory conclusion, and move on.

Maybe my MIL's big bosoms were pure inspiration (I think my FIL thought so), but I'm skeptical. I have no intention of actually finding out since the answer doesn't matter to me (this assumes that God would even tell me, since it is really has nothing to do with me).


So LDS Mr A could determine whether LDS Mr B's claimed revelation was true or not, if:

(a) Mr A was willing to make the necessary effort
(b) Mr B's revelation concerned something that was something to do with Mr A.

Thus, for example, if dblagent007's MIL's revelation to the effect that she should have her breasts enlarged included the revelation that dblagent007 should pay for the procedure, then dblagent007 could reasonably expect to be able to use revelation to check the reliability of MIL's revelation. And if the breast enlargement was costly enough,dblagent007 probably would do so.

An interesting religion ...
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