Mormons don't really believe in revelation by the Spirit.

[_Equality]

It's her body. Her life.

That's not what the Bible says:
1 Cor. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Still, I agree that she didn't have to justify it to her family.

I'll take John Locke over the delusional Saul/Paul any day. You'll have to do better than an appeal to a most questionable authori-tay if you are going to persuade someone with, you know, a brain.

[_Sister Mary Lisa]

The closest thing we have to revelation is the Proclamation to the Family, and what a disappointing message it gives us that anyone not living a family life with a mother, father, and children together in the same home is somehow straying from the Only Way It Should Be. Sad, because there are so many diverse and beautiful families in the church who don't fit that exactly, and they are made to feel as if they've failed.

Having a different family does not imply failure. Sometimes a parent dies and leaves behind widows. I don't see how the proclomation implied that such is straying from the gospel path, and if you do then I think that I frankly cannot help you to understand what a wonderful proclomation it was for our times. It is the ideal to strive for, not the measuring stick of worthiness. Worthiness depends on intent + actions within your ability to control. You cannot prevent all untimely death. You can control yourself so as not to have sex outside of wedlock or to do that which is unseemly with your own gender.

Notice that the only example out of thousands of diverse family situations that you could come up with where it's OK to be a "different" family is by being a widow or widower. All other families who aren't this model family as outlined in the Proclamation are viewed as less than ideal and somehow lacking. I know this is true, having been married to a non-member for 14 years while being an active Mormon, and being consistently placed on the fringes of the crowd, because I was different. Because I took my kids to church alone. People at church treat people who aren't the "ideal" differently.

And it is implied, like you just did, that if you don't live that, you haven't sought out the righteous path for yourself, or it's assumed you haven't attempted to strive hard enough for it. I wonder if a righteous young LDS man would rather choose to marry a young, righteous, beautiful divorcee with three kids, or a young, righteous, beautiful, single woman who'd never been married yet. Only one of them fits the "ideal" he should strive for as outlined in the Proclamation.

If an LDS woman has a very best friend who isn't LDS, and they love each other with all their hearts, and he is the perfect mate for her in all ways, she will be discouraged from seeking him for her mate, because he is not "ideal." I find this so sad, pointless, and wrong.

[_The Nehor]

I'll take John Locke over the delusional Saul/Paul any day. You'll have to do better than an appeal to a most questionable authori-tay if you are going to persuade someone with, you know, a brain.

Demonstrate that people possessing such a thing come here and I'll consider it.

[_The Nehor]

If an LDS woman has a very best friend who isn't LDS, and they love each other with all their hearts, and he is the perfect mate for her in all ways, she will be discouraged from seeking him for her mate, because he is not "ideal." I find this so sad, pointless, and wrong.

If an active, believing LDS woman is in that scenario then he is not the perfect mate. Romantic? Not really. Reality? Yes.

[_Yoda]

I'll take John Locke over the delusional Saul/Paul any day. You'll have to do better than an appeal to a most questionable authori-tay if you are going to persuade someone with, you know, a brain.

Demonstrate that people possessing such a thing come here and I'll consider it.

Uh, Nehor? I believe you are engaging in one of your own Seven Habits which you consider in bad form:

Habit #1: Condescension

No matter which side of the fence you're on never treat the opposition seriously. It's critical that even in a (blissfully rare) real discussion of important issues that you make sure everyone is aware how silly and ridiculous the opposition is. This should be done by being cute whenever possible. Phrases that begin with the following are a great place to start:

"You can't possibly expect us to believe......"
"This is very interesting especially because.....(insert something from their side that contradicts, preferably by the poster)"
"Kill. Murder. Scratch. Blood"

Another fun way to be condescending is to patronize other posters. This should be done through demeaning nicknames and finding effective ways to make it look like you just gave them a pat on the head and a piece of candy.

[_Sister Mary Lisa]

Asbestosman,

Say a woman goes to BYU and ends up pregnant, so she has to go home because the school doesn't allow unwed mothers to stay in their housing. Say she goes home and visits her bishop and begins life as a single mother in the church. Do you think that she is going to be judged against the "ideal" the prophets held up as a standard to follow? Of course she is.

I wouldn't be surprised if you just had the thought run through your head that that's what happens when you choose the wrong and find yourself pregnant, so let this be a lesson to all girls who are thinking of committing the horrible sin of having sex outside the bonds of marriage.

Only what if she was raped by her supposedly righteous boyfriend at BYU, and this is what resulted in her pregnancy? This is not a story a woman openly shares with all her dates (at least those LDS boys willing to look past her "sin" enough to actually ask her out even though she's got a kid).

The Proclamation hurts many people in the church who have realities in their lives that are far from the "ideal" we are all to strive for. It's tragic, and so unnecessary and wrong to pit one little scenario of family life as the only one we should strive for. Sad.

[_Sister Mary Lisa]

If an LDS woman has a very best friend who isn't LDS, and they love each other with all their hearts, and he is the perfect mate for her in all ways, she will be discouraged from seeking him for her mate, because he is not "ideal." I find this so sad, pointless, and wrong.

If an active, believing LDS woman is in that scenario then he is not the perfect mate. Romantic? Not really. Reality? Yes.

This is only said by you because you are looking at her life through the words of the Proclamation, thereby proving my point that the Proclamation is detrimental to people, and causes them to be judged when they aren't living the "ideal." It places a standard to strive for that is not always ideal FOR THEM. In my example, this man was perfect for her in all ways. Trust me, just because a man holds the priesthood does not guarantee he'll be a good mate.

[_The Nehor]

Uh, Nehor? I believe you are engaging in one of your own Seven Habits which you consider in bad form:

Habit #1: Condescension

No matter which side of the fence you're on never treat the opposition seriously. It's critical that even in a (blissfully rare) real discussion of important issues that you make sure everyone is aware how silly and ridiculous the opposition is. This should be done by being cute whenever possible. Phrases that begin with the following are a great place to start:

"You can't possibly expect us to believe......"
"This is very interesting especially because.....(insert something from their side that contradicts, preferably by the poster)"
"Kill. Murder. Scratch. Blood"

Another fun way to be condescending is to patronize other posters. This should be done through demeaning nicknames and finding effective ways to make it look like you just gave them a pat on the head and a piece of candy.

What are you talking about? I was giving good advice. What kind of a hypocrite would I be if I didn't follow it? ;)

[_The Nehor]

If an active, believing LDS woman is in that scenario then he is not the perfect mate. Romantic? Not really. Reality? Yes.

This is only said by you because you are looking at her life through the words of the Proclamation, thereby proving my point that the Proclamation is detrimental to people, and causes them to be judged when they aren't living the "ideal." It places a standard to strive for that is not always ideal FOR THEM. In my example, this man was perfect for her in all ways. Trust me, just because a man holds the priesthood does not guarantee he'll be a good mate.

I am a man who holds the Priesthood and I'm well aware of flaws so I trust you on that point.

Does this woman in the example believe the Church is true and that it offers the way to supernal joy? Does she want to spend her life taking her kids to Church alone? Does she want to watch others baptize and bless her children? Does she want the Priesthood in her home? Does she want the crowning ordinances of the Gospel?

If she answers no, then there's no problem and your example might be correct. Such a person would take the proclamation less seriously.

If she answers yes, then he's far from perfect for her as she's shutting a door on some of those options that she may never get to open again.

I'm saying this as someone who spent a few weeks himself to sleep over not being with a girl that was perfect in every way except for her religious and spiritual life. If you think I'm callously saying that living this won't hurt, I'm not. It can and often does.

[_Sister Mary Lisa]

I am a man who holds the Priesthood and I'm well aware of flaws so I trust you on that point.

Does this woman in the example believe the Church is true and that it offers the way to supernal joy? Does she want to spend her life taking her kids to Church alone? Does she want to watch others baptize and bless her children? Does she want the Priesthood in her home? Does she want the crowning ordinances of the Gospel?

If she answers no, then there's no problem and your example might be correct. Such a person would take the proclamation less seriously.

If she answers yes, then he's far from perfect for her as she's shutting a door on some of those options that she may never get to open again.

I'm saying this as someone who spent a few weeks himself to sleep over not being with a girl that was perfect in every way except for her religious and spiritual life. If you think I'm callously saying that living this won't hurt, I'm not. It can and often does.

It'd be helpful if the prophet could come up with some revelation that works for ALL people, and not just a select minority who fit the "ideal." I find the Proclamation a harmful tool in making people feel discouraged about themselves and look down on others, and it leads people to pass by chances for real happiness as they seek only the "ideal" for themselves according to what they think God wants for them.