DCP's Evaluation of Mike Quinn.

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_Ray A

DCP's Evaluation of Mike Quinn.

Post by _Ray A »

I quote from MADB, from THIS thread, Dan's comment:

Finally, nobody here disputes Mike Quinn's autobiography. And I certainly don't deny that he's an extraordinarily bright and industrious scholar. He was, for many years, probably my favorite writer on Mormon history. But then my doubts about his work began to grow, and to grow, and to grow.

The issue isn't Mike Quinn's intelligence or his Yale degree. The issue is his reliability. In fact, it turns out, his use of evidence is often tendentious, and (as the reviews to which I provided links above plainly show) he is agenda-driven on certain matters to an extraordinary and unusual degree. (The reviews of his Same-Sex Dynamics book make that especially -- and, I think, indisputably -- clear.)


Well, I have to say I'm kind of shocked. Quinn was Dan's "favourite writer on Mormon History"? (I'm blown away, to be frank) I knew we always had something in common! What I'd like to ask Dan is this: How does one book by Quinn discredit everything he has said about Mormon history? Or does it? Why did your doubts "continue to grow and grow", Dan? Or were your doubts in place from the very beginning? And even if Quinn "distorted" Same-Sex Dynamics, how does that render his earlier work "obsolete"? Or was Same -Sex Dynamics just an excuse to render his early controversial history "obsolete"?

I don't buy this, Dan. But I'll give you the full right of reply to refute anything I've said. (I have no choice, it's a free speech board).
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_Sethbag
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Re: DCP's Evaluation of Mike Quinn.

Post by _Sethbag »

I find it highly ironic that any LDS apologist would find any historian's work "tendentious" without blinking an eye, and not be yelling and screaming bloody murder about the tendentiousness of the LDS apologists' own work. For heaven's sake, every single LDS apologist I've ever read starts with the assumption that the LDS church is true, and then uses (or ignores) evidence, and argument, to support that point. If that's not tendentious, I don't know what is.

I would be curious, if the "Same Sex Dynamics" book (which I have not read) gives the apologists such low-hanging fruit to discredit Quinn with, had never happened, how strong would be their argument against him? I'm curious what you think.

I didn't read the entire "magical world view" book, but just read sections of it and kind of skimmed the rest. I did read the entire "Origins of Power" book. I thought, as I read that book, that this was a description of an obviously man-made church. If there's anything "unreliable" about Quinn, in my mind, it's that he can do such a good job demonstrating to the world just how man-made the LDS church really is, and then still claim to believe it's "true".

I'm forced to wonder how much that statement reflects his own true opinion and feeling on the subject, and how much is related to some perhaps unconscious understanding that the anti-LDS crowd makes for a very small potential market, and it would be better to be seen on the "I believe" side, for the benefit of the LDS market, than the "I don't believe" side, which the LDS market will most ignore.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Ray A

Re: DCP's Evaluation of Mike Quinn.

Post by _Ray A »

Sethbag wrote:I would be curious, if the "Same Sex Dynamics" book (which I have not read) gives the apologists such low-hanging fruit to discredit Quinn with, had never happened, how strong would be their argument against him? I'm curious what you think.


That's what I'm asking Dan. He obviously felt that Quinn's early work was sound, which I presume to mean he agrees with Quinn that the Woodruff/Snow administration lied to the Church and the public.

Sethbag wrote:I didn't read the entire "magical world view" book, but just read sections of it and kind of skimmed the rest. I did read the entire "Origins of Power" book. I thought, as I read that book, that this was a description of an obviously man-made church. If there's anything "unreliable" about Quinn, in my mind, it's that he can do such a good job demonstrating to the world just how man-made the LDS church really is, and then still claim to believe it's "true".


That's what apologists have also questioned. I don't know the answer to that one. But Quinn made it clear in his writing that he was not being fake in his belief. For some reason, he believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet "like Moses".

Sethbag wrote:I'm forced to wonder how much that statement reflects his own true opinion and feeling on the subject, and how much is related to some perhaps unconscious understanding that the anti-LDS crowd makes for a very small potential market, and it would be better to be seen on the "I believe" side, for the benefit of the LDS market, than the "I don't believe" side, which the LDS market will most ignore.


I don't accept that, Seth. He is now living in poverty, BYU academic status and tenure revoked, and excommunicated. If he was seeking "honours" or "money", he could have thought of better ways of doing it. Besides, the "I believe" crowd never accepted him. If anything, he has more appeal to ex-Mormons, who have serious reservations about his "I believe" moments. In this respect, I think he offended both "sides", and I don't view that as a particularly wise "money-making venture".

And which "LDS market" now sells Quinn's books?

Do you think he may just have been trying to be true to his religious beliefs, while trying to also be honest about Mormon history, and incurring the wrath of both sides? And ending up in the gutter?
_Sethbag
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Re: DCP's Evaluation of Mike Quinn.

Post by _Sethbag »

Recall that he was saying "I believe" while he was not yet excommunicated/fired/pauperized. Perhaps he sticks with it now to avoid being attacked further by people who would accuse him of flip-flopping, having lied previously, or what have you.

Here's a question, the answer to which I don't know, and perhaps you do. What books of Quinn's were written before his excommunication, and what books were written subsequently?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_harmony
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Re: DCP's Evaluation of Mike Quinn.

Post by _harmony »

Ray A wrote:He is now living in poverty, BYU academic status and tenure revoked, and excommunicated.


Still? What's the matter with the man? He has enough degrees to paper the bathroom wall, and he doesn't have a job? That makes no sense.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_antishock8
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Re: DCP's Evaluation of Mike Quinn.

Post by _antishock8 »

He's living in poverty?
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Dwight Frye
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Re: DCP's Evaluation of Mike Quinn.

Post by _Dwight Frye »

Sethbag wrote:Here's a question, the answer to which I don't know, and perhaps you do. What books of Quinn's were written before his excommunication, and what books were written subsequently?

He was excommunicated in September 1993 (he was one of the September Six). According to wikipedia's bibliography, most of his better known titles came post-excommunication.
"Christian anti-Mormons are no different than that wonderful old man down the street who turns out to be a child molester." - Obiwan, nutjob Mormon apologist - Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:25 pm
_Ray A

Re: DCP's Evaluation of Mike Quinn.

Post by _Ray A »

antishock8 wrote:He's living in poverty?


You can find more information Here.

The fund-raiser site has now been taken down, so he must be out of trouble.
_Ray A

Re: DCP's Evaluation of Mike Quinn.

Post by _Ray A »

Sethbag wrote:Here's a question, the answer to which I don't know, and perhaps you do. What books of Quinn's were written before his excommunication, and what books were written subsequently?


I think anything post Early Mormonism and Magic Worldview (1987) would be anathema. The J. Reuben Clark biography (1983) and selected writings on Clark at BYU would be on the "pass" list of Mormon academics, I'd say.
_Ray A

Re: DCP's Evaluation of Mike Quinn.

Post by _Ray A »

Quinn compared to Mark Hofmann:

After spending several weeks reading and rereading your work, it is clear to me that you have deliberately manipulated 100s of historic documents in order to forge them into a vindictive weapon, with the intent of undermining the union of the Latter Day Saints as a people, and the influence and priesthood of "the Mormon Hierarchy". In doing this, not only have you compromised your integrity, but the principles of your profession. This does not say much for your character. In fact it puts you right in the same class with Mark Hoffman — the difference being that he murdered both bodies and souls of men — in your case, you destroy men's faith and in so doing you also destroy their souls. I don't want you to get me wrong Mike — it's not your research that I disagree with — that is the most commendable contribution of your book. Its not the research — its your unprofessional ethics, as manifest through the fraudulent picture which you have created of the past, through the dishonest exploitation of historic documents.


An Open Letter to D. Michael Quinn (This is from Collier's publishing:"Collier's Publishing is a Company which specializes in the Writing, Printing and Distribution of Doctrinal and Historical material which is Fundamental to the Fulness of the Restored Gospel and it's Biblical defense. If you are interested in the Exalting Principles which were revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith and the Unadulterated Religion of Original Christianity, you owe it to yourself to become acquainted with the many Good Works of Collier's Publishing Company! )

Bill Hamblin review of Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview:

In a very real sense Quinn's book is an academic version of the Hofmann forgeries.


That Old Black Magic
Last edited by _Ray A on Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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