Does God actually need to exist?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Gunnar
_Emeritus
Posts: 6315
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:17 am

Re: Does God actually need to exist?

Post by _Gunnar »

Fence Sitter wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:And let's not play the card, again, that God could/should be doing a heck of a lot better job at getting the message out. Unless that's where you, and others, want to go...again. :smile: And we should at least look at the possibility that not everyone has to, needs to, wants to, hear the 'big picture' narrative/story in this chapter/phase of existence. There may be many other intertwined twists and plots that make up the sum total of the tale that is being told...and acted out in real time.
Hey, I can't help it if I continue to point out that a pair of deuces is probably a loosing hand, and that there are a whole lot of tables out there with different games, whose participants seem every bit as content as those few sitting at the Mormon table.

Mentalgymnast,

Fence Sitter has a very valid point here, The incontrovertible fact remains that that is a very strong card indeed, to which no one yet has been able to come even slightly close to presenting an effective and reasonable rebuttal. It is no wonder you wish us to avoid playing that card. You realize that you have no chance of beating or trumping it. As I and numerous others have repeatedly pointed out, given the fact that there are so many mutually contradictory and incompatible religious belief systems, even if the LDS Church really were the one true and divinely led church it claims to be, the unreliability of the religious faith approach to discerning truth is still established beyond all reasonable doubt! Arguing otherwise is as foolish as trusting in the reliability of a gun that has never been conclusively or unambiguously proven to have actually hit the target it was aimed at!

I simply cannot believe in, much less worship, a god so foolish and/or uncaring that he could or would not have provided mankind with a more reliable or less ambiguous means of discerning truth about him than that, if he truly cared whether or not we believe in him.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Does God actually need to exist?

Post by _Darth J »

mentalgymnast wrote:We do have Brigham Young saying, and it's referenced in the essay, that black members would one day receive priesthood and temple blessings.


You are taking that completely out of context (ETA: and so is the essay). What Brigham Young said is that before Negroes could have the priesthood, all of the other children of Adam would have to receive the priesthood, be resurrected, and become exalted. AFTER THAT, Negroes could get the priesthood.

Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, pp. 142-143

Cain conversed with his God every day, and knew all about the plan of creating this earth, for his father told him. But, for the want of humility, and through jealousy, and an anxiety to possess the kingdom, and to have the whole of it under his own control, and not allow anybody else the right to say one word, what did he do? He killed his brother. The Lord put a mark on him; and there are some of his children in this room. When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity. He deprived his brother of the privilege of pursuing his journey through life, and of extending his kingdom by multiplying upon the earth; and because he did this, he is the last to share the joys of the kingdom of God.

Was Brigham Young right, and the current LDS Church is apostate for giving blacks the priesthood before every single non-black person who has existed or ever will exist is resurrected and has a chance to become a god? Or was he apostate, and nobody in the church noticed for 124 years?
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Does God actually need to exist?

Post by _Darth J »

mentalgymnast wrote:Are we to start off with the assumption that leaders of other faith groups don't receive direct guidance, at all, from God? Off the top of my head I'm thinking of Billy Graham Sr. I don't think that he was winging it on his own...on the assumption that God directs his affairs through men on this earth. And if this being the case with Billy Graham and others...God dealing uniquely with them...wouldn't it be safe to assume that the First Presidency would also privilege a degree/kind of unique guidance relative to their stewardship?


My kids are outside of the house. I want them to be able to get inside. So I send a neighbor to tell them that the code for the keypad that opens the garage door is "1234."

Then I send another neighbor to tell them the code for the keypad is "1111."

Then I have another neighbor tell them that the keypad doesn't work, and they need to find the key to the front door. I have him say the key is under the mat on the front porch.

I have another neighbor tell them the key is buried in someone's yard at the end of the block.

I send a neighbor to tell them they shouldn't do anything, because in a while I will just come outside myself to get them.

Yet another neighbor, sent by me, tells them they have to learn the password to come in, and that password is "hippopotamus."

Except that I have another neighbor tell them the password is "triangle."

I do all this of course because I am a reasonable parent who loves them and actually wants them to come back inside.

Or maybe it's absolutely ridiculous to say that I give all of my messengers mutually exclusive instructions while maintaining that I really do want my kids back inside.

Does anyone know of any proposed Mormon theodicy ever that doesn't require Elohim to be schizophrenic, or at least completely incompetent, and to do things in the most ludicrous, convoluted way possible?
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Does God actually need to exist?

Post by _I have a question »

mentalgymnast wrote:Are you able to reference any sources that show there was a significant number of saints at that time who believed Brigham and the saints were in apostasy?

Regards,
MG


Good evening, I have a question.

My point was that the membership cannot qualitatively determine Gods involvement or otherwise in their Church. That I cannot provide a single example of what you request illustrates what I mean. Brigham Young led the Church into apostasy on the Priesthood and nobody saw it. Wether God is or isn't behind the Church direction is immaterial to the membership.

My question: Did you mean to illustrate my point so effectively?
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Does God actually need to exist?

Post by _I have a question »

Gorman wrote:
I have a question wrote:The very basis of this thread is to understand how members determine Gods involvement in their Church. Given its claim to being the one and only Church that God is involved with one would expect to see some unique identifiers of that involvement.


The bolded portion is flat out wrong, is it not? Mormon Theology claims that the LDS church is the only authorized church. Being the only church God is involved in is another story entirely. You could make a fair argument that Mormon Theology requires that God is involved in all churches, because God is involved in all individual lives.


Good evening, I have a question:

“I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

My question: In what way am I misinterpreting what Jesus Christ Himself directly told Joseph Smith in the founding vision of the Church?
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Does God actually need to exist?

Post by _I have a question »

Gorman wrote:The original question seems to be misplaced (it's a leading question as well).

You are trying to get at the apparent absence of God. You suggest this apparent absence is evidence that Mormon Theology cannot be correct. This doesn't follow.

It could be argued that Mormon Theology allows for, if not requires, bursts of revelation and then long periods where revelation seems absent. Joseph Smith struggled with God's apparent absence right before the Kirtland Temple experience and famously in Liberty Jail. Tackling this aspect of God is a requirement for any theology, is it not? For whatever reason, God does not make it a habit of showing up regularly on people's doorstep. Every religion I know talks about the experience of deity as a journey, or a struggle, or a path. Experiencing God is subtle and can be explained away by any number of things, if you so choose.

As to why experiencing God is so subtle . . . that is another question entirely.


Good evening, I have a question:

I think you maybe misunderstanding my question. I am suggesting that wether or not God is behind the Mormon Church is irrelevant. Members need only believe He is behind it. I have given some good examples (in my opinion) where the Church has demonstrated, confessed even, to God not being behind policies put in place by the Prophet of the time, yet the membership went along with it because they believed God was behind it. The members have no way of determining Gods involvement or otherwise, and the active membership is okay with that situation.

My question: How can Mormon Theology be considered correct if one cannot demonstrate, reliably, that God is behind that theology and when there are official confessions that that Theology has been wrong in the past?
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Does God actually need to exist?

Post by _I have a question »

Good evening, I have a question:
mentalgymnast wrote:
I have a question wrote:
The very basis of this thread is to understand how members determine Gods involvement in their Church. Given its claim to being the one and only Church that God is involved with one would expect to see some unique identifiers of that involvement. Mental gymnast seems to have suggested that change and lack of change are both identifiers of a divine restoration. Which clearly is an untenable suggestion.


Neither change or lack of change is mutually exclusive. So there may be a time and place for each.

My question: is this now your final position?

I have a question wrote:My question: What is it about the First Presidency that qualitatively identifies Gods unique involvement in directing them, in comparison with the leaders of other faith groups who don't have the advantage of Gods direct guidance?


Are we to start off with the assumption that leaders of other faith groups don't receive direct guidance, at all, from God? Off the top of my head I'm thinking of Billy Graham Sr. I don't think that he was winging it on his own...on the assumption that God directs his affairs through men on this earth. And if this being the case with Billy Graham and others...God dealing uniquely with them...wouldn't it be safe to assume that the First Presidency would also privilege a degree/kind of unique guidance relative to their stewardship?

Regards,
MG


Good evening, I have a question:

You haven't answered the question. So I will rephrase it into your terms.

My question: What do you see that demonstrates that the First Presidency has a unique guidance relative to their stewardship?
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: Does God actually need to exist?

Post by _Tobin »

I have a question wrote:My question: How can Mormon Theology be considered correct if one cannot demonstrate, reliably, that God is behind that theology and when there are official confessions that that Theology has been wrong in the past?
I don't think it is very clear what is Mormon Theology is what is not. For example, maybe Mormon Theology is simply that if God exists, he can answer us directly. If that is Mormon Theology, then the way to verify that it is valid is to speak with God. If God doesn't answer, then Mormon Theology can't be relied upon.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Does God actually need to exist?

Post by _I have a question »

Good evening Tobin, I have a question:

Tobin wrote:For example, maybe Mormon Theology is simply that if God exists, he can answer us directly. If that is Mormon Theology, then the way to verify that it is valid is to speak with God. If God doesn't answer, then Mormon Theology can't be relied upon.


I'm afraid that isn't Mormon Theology. Mormon Theology teaches that God communicates with us via the Holy Spirit (feelings and spiritual whisperings) and that the only person capable of speaking directly with Him is the Prophet.

My question: Forgive me but from viewing some of your contributions you seem unfamiliar with Mormon Theology, have you ever been a Church member?
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: Does God actually need to exist?

Post by _Tobin »

I have a question wrote:Good evening Tobin, I have a question:

Tobin wrote:For example, maybe Mormon Theology is simply that if God exists, he can answer us directly. If that is Mormon Theology, then the way to verify that it is valid is to speak with God. If God doesn't answer, then Mormon Theology can't be relied upon.


I'm afraid that isn't Mormon Theology. Mormon Theology teaches that God communicates with us via the Holy Spirit (feelings and spiritual whisperings) and that the only person capable of speaking directly with Him is the Prophet.

My question: Forgive me but from viewing some of your contributions you seem unfamiliar with Mormon Theology, have you ever been a Church member?
I see. So you really don't really have a question. You have flawed assumptions and aren't interested in what is more likely the truth. And that isn't how God answered Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith had a question and God supposedly appeared and answered him directly. It seems like you don't understand Mormon Theology as well as you think you do. Maybe you should think about that.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Post Reply