Unlearning Female Submissiveness

[_Meadowchik]

I was the girl in high school Calculus who corrected the teacher. I was also the one who stood up to the football player who harassed me in class. Despite that, as a faithful Latter-Day Saint, I was submissive to leaders, priesthood holders. In adulthood, it continued and I second-guessed myself frequently. It also extended significantly to all interactions with people, this idea that being Christlike is self-denying, soft, polite, cheerful, and cooperative, even in the face of inappropriate behavior, sometimes especially in that case!

Yet that is changing, and it is glorious. It is wonderful to value my own thoughts and opinions independently, without checking them with authority first.

Sometimes, the joy is in the details, even ugly details. Today a Facebook friend, a long-time acquaintance, tagged me on Facebook. The post felt inappropriate and I felt uncomfortable. A few months ago I had cut short a private message conversation with this man because I felt he was fishing romantically. So when I saw the Facebook tag today, I immediately untagged myself, then worried that he'd see that and confront me. After a few seconds, I decided, nope. I unfriended, then blocked for good measure.

It was a good intercept, fumble, then recovery, this saying "no" to unwanted attention. It feels good to reject it and know I have every right to do so.

[_Fiannan]

And yet there is basically no such thing as total independent thought. You can reject the LDS concepts for instance but then you will replace another set of values, be they society in general or another religion.

I do not go as far as BF Skinner and say all you are is a series of synapses designed to make you comfortable in the environment you are placed in but to a degree he was right. Maybe Edward Bernays was more on the mark.

[_Meadowchik]

And yet there is basically no such thing as total independent thought. You can reject the LDS concepts for instance but then you will replace another set of values, be they society in general or another religion.

I do not go as far as BF Skinner and say all you are is a series of synapses designed to make you comfortable in the environment you are placed in but to a degree he was right. Maybe Edward Bernays was more on the mark.

Say what you will, but there are magnitudes of difference between consciously trying to align my thoughts independent of the church to the church, and being an conscious entity responding to others' thoughts, words, and creations. The latter goes without saying.

[_Xenophon]

Meadowchik, I enjoyed the OP and shared it with my wife (if she wants I'll post her thoughts later). I think your experience echos her's in many ways, particularly the juxtaposition between your natural outspokenness compared to what the LDS Church puts forth as the ideal role for all "low-level" believers and women in particular. I think it can definitely create some conflict, both internal and external, when one feels like they need to suppress their inner selves.

That submission to authority was a primary source tension early on in our marriage. As a later-in-life convert I was very uncomfortable with how much authority and decision making she felt she needed to cede to me being the good Molly Mormon BIC that she was. As someone that wanted her input and valued her contribution I began to feel as if the burden of the relationship was entirely on me (not her intention, but how it read to a younger me). I grew up in a household where my parents had a non-standard division of labor and were very open about how it was an equal partnership. I quickly learned after marriage that this was an ideal to be worked for, not something that happened automatically.

Her slow departure from the Church has been excellent in this regard for us as she has begun to feel more comfortable shedding that submissiveness.

[_reflexzero]

I’d wager that submissiveness is entangled with a good amount of learned dependency. My dear widow mother-in-Law is convinced she is helpless without the priesthood, and won’t dare change a lightbulb in her own.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Man, no joke. When I first got to know my wife she was a fun, snarky, outgoing type. I thought she was basically the antithesis of Mormon girl types. However over the course of our relationship it astonished and continues to astonish me how deferential and permission seeking she is toward me. It's different from consideration, there's definitely a submissiveness there that we've talked about. She stated outright that's how she was raised and it's her default setting. Anytime it gets to that weird area I just tell her to go with whatever she thinks is best for her and own the decision. I'm supportive, but I'm not a fan of being accountable for her decision making process.

- Doc

[_candygal]

I was the girl in high school Calculus who corrected the teacher. I was also the one who stood up to the football player who harassed me in class. Despite that, as a faithful Latter-Day Saint, I was submissive to leaders, priesthood holders. In adulthood, it continued and I second-guessed myself frequently. It also extended significantly to all interactions with people, this idea that being Christlike is self-denying, soft, polite, cheerful, and cooperative, even in the face of inappropriate behavior, sometimes especially in that case!

Yet that is changing, and it is glorious. It is wonderful to value my own thoughts and opinions independently, without checking them with authority first.

Sometimes, the joy is in the details, even ugly details. Today a Facebook friend, a long-time acquaintance, tagged me on Facebook. The post felt inappropriate and I felt uncomfortable. A few months ago I had cut short a private message conversation with this man because I felt he was fishing romantically. So when I saw the Facebook tag today, I immediately untagged myself, then worried that he'd see that and confront me. After a few seconds, I decided, nope. I unfriended, then blocked for good measure.

It was a good intercept, fumble, then recovery, this saying "no" to unwanted attention. It feels good to reject it and know I have every right to do so.

Ooooo...I so know what you mean..although I learned some things the hard way...but the core of yourself was hidden by the "keep sweet" words of church..and no wonder Meadowchik...we were so confused about who we were and what we could become!! I was not one as courageous as you as young girl..I kept sweet in all areas of my life...until I had no choice. The widow in me had to be strong for two children..and so I became my own challenge in choices that had to be made. This, I believe is what let me out...no one was going to tell me how to raise my children..and tell me I was wrong about the way I was raising them. I am happy for feeling you feel and recognize it. It is like suddenly...oh yes...women, we are people too!

[_Fence Sitter]

Totally get where you are coming from MC. It's a subject I have discussed with my wife numerous times in which I try and get her to see how the men in the church are no more capable then the women, but she is stuck in her belief that men somehow have this divine right to tell women what to do.

Ironically that belief seem to fade away when we disagree. Somehow she is not persuaded by my argument that as the priesthood holder I should get to choose which bar we eat at.

[_RockSlider]

So when I saw the Facebook tag today, I immediately untagged myself, then worried that he'd see that and confront me. After a few seconds, I decided, nope. I unfriended, then blocked for good measure.

And you broke my heart!

[_candygal]

So when I saw the Facebook tag today, I immediately untagged myself, then worried that he'd see that and confront me. After a few seconds, I decided, nope. I unfriended, then blocked for good measure.

And you broke my heart!

?????