Vogel's new video response on Book of Mormon and Masonry

[Moksha]

I hate to put your back against the wall, but is it your thesis that the Gadianton robbers are Masons or merely described using anti-Masonic rhetoric?

And would they have perfected the craft of adobe bricks? Was there a subsidiary group known as the Talos Tricksters? I know that would have crossed my mind if I was writing a companion volume.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I hate to put your back against the wall, but is it your thesis that the Gadianton robbers are Masons or merely described using anti-Masonic rhetoric?

And would they have perfected the craft of adobe bricks? Was there a subsidiary group known as the Talos Tricksters? I know that would have crossed my mind if I was writing a companion volume.

How does Talos fit into the joke of Gadianton robbers were masons who “perfected the craft of adobe bricks?” I’m not seeing the humor segue between masonry and greek myth “tricksters.”

- Doc

[Moksha]

How does Talos fit into the joke of Gadianton robbers were masons who “perfected the craft of adobe bricks?” I’m not seeing the humor segue between masonry and greek myth “tricksters.”

- Doc

The connection point would be adobe (a very American building material from the Southwest and something new world masons would undoubtedly be familiar with) and Talos (a city in New Mexico with a lot of adobe). Talos Tricksters sounds equal to Gadianton Robbers as an antagonist group to include in a fun supporting story. The Talos Tricksters could have created mischief for both the righteous Nephites and the sinister Thalmor. If nothing else, perhaps it could serve as another testament to Benny Hill. General Zelph would have been familiar with this group.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

How does Talos fit into the joke of Gadianton robbers were masons who “perfected the craft of adobe bricks?” I’m not seeing the humor segue between masonry and greek myth “tricksters.”

- Doc

The connection point would be adobe (a very American building material from the Southwest and something new world masons would undoubtedly be familiar with) and Talos (a city in New Mexico with a lot of adobe). Talos Tricksters sounds equal to Gadianton Robbers as an antagonist group to include in a fun supporting story. The Talos Tricksters could have created mischief for both the righteous Nephites and the sinister Thalmor. If nothing else, perhaps it could serve as another testament to Benny Hill. General Zelph would have been familiar with this group.

Is there a Talos, NM? There’s a Taos, NM which can be a very interesting place if one is into turquoise and wolf art. Also, Thalmor and Nephites? That’s another segue I don’t get.

- Doc

[Moksha]

Is there a Talos, NM? There’s a Taos, NM which can be a very interesting place if one is into turquoise and wolf art. Also, Thalmor and Nephites? That’s another segue I don’t get.

- Doc

Perhaps I can chalk up equating Tao with Talos as a senior moment. In another mythology (The Elder Scrolls), the Followers of Talos are persecuted by the Thalmor.

[Informant]

In this video, I will examine fifteen of the major arguments that the apologists have put forward in an attempt to overturn the anti-Masonic thesis. Along the way, I hope that my viewers will gain a deeper understanding of the Book of Mormon in its nineteenth-century setting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFLZkVwM5A8

But you won’t debate these ideas, right? No one should question your conclusions.

[dan vogel]

Indeed, definitely more than rhetoric, but is Joseph at this point so spot on in his typological ancient parallels as to say, "Hey, there were evil Masons in ancient America, so beware!"? On the one hand, I can totally imagine that being the case, but it would actually only work well if he had a pretty good understanding of Masonic legend and took it literally as history, as many Masons in the past actually did.

My thinking goes like this:

Secret combinations are first brought here by the Jaredites, who received the oaths from prior generations whose knowledge traces back to Cain.


This provides an alternative history for the origins of Freemasonry that would seem to contradict the most well-known Masonic legends about Solomon and Hiram Abif. But, if we look at George Oliver's Antiquities of Freemasonry, we see the following:


It is possible to infer from Oliver that Cain was the possessor of an apostate form of Masonry, and that would help us understand why Smith was locating the origins of secret combinations in the story of Cain.

It follows from this, however, that an apostate form of Masonry would originate from a pure Masonry. For Oliver, Masonry always existed. Cain apostatized from this Masonry, and thus a bad Masonry was born, which Joseph Smith, following the lead of Oliver, cast as the secret combinations that come from Cain. This shows, however, that the origin of secret combinations in Mormonism is built upon the presupposition of an earlier form of good Masonry.

This was Oliver's take on the origin of Masonry, but it would not have been the explanation offered by an anti-Mason. To an anti-Mason, Cain was the originator of Masonry, at least, in their rhetoric. In the Book of Mormon the secret signs, words, and oaths are the identifying feature of secret combinations. There's no other competing group with true signs, words, and oaths. The problem with Joseph Smith is that he turned rhetoric into real history. Oliver was an apologist who was attempting to rescue Masonry from criticism that it had originated from the heathen mystery cults. His response was that the heathen nations had apostatized from the true principles of Masonry and traced their origin to Cain. Oliver and other apologists were careful to state that Adam and other patriarchs were not Masons or had any of the secrets that came from Solomon's temple, only that they held true principles and since Masonry is founded on true principles, Masons claim them as predecessors.

[tagriffy]

It's difficult to know what Joseph Smith had in mind, but the Book of Mormon links the latter-day secret combinations with the ancient ones and describes them as unitary. The secrets were revealed to Cain by Satan and transmission came by the records or revelation. The Book of Mormon's Gaddiantons were described as ebbing and flowing depending on the wickedness or righteousness of the Nephites. Thus the Book of Mormon warns Jacksonian America not to let the secret combination get above them or it could prove the overthrow of the free government. So it's more than just rhetoric.

Thank you. I have to think about this before I can ask intelligent questions about it.

[dan vogel]

It seems someone has taken issue with what I wrote about George Oliver.

The Masonic scholars who have done the most research on George Oliver believed that he wholeheartedly believed in the orthodox school of thought on Masonic history that Adam went through Masonic rituals in the Garden of Eden and that he ran his descendants through those degrees after his being kicked out.

Well, how could that be since the first three degrees deal with Hiram Abiff, the Master Mason who worked on Solomon's temple? The key words also come from the temple. Salem Town explained how some Masonic authors could speculate about Adam and the patriarchs.

Let it be remarked in this place, and carefully recollected by every reader, that when mention is made of Noah, Abram, Moses and others who lived before the building of the first temple, that the Masonic character and knowledge of those persons is to be understood in a qualified sense. It is not meant to be asserted that they belonged to regular bodies, and associated as members of this Institution, It is not pretended that they were initiated into the Order, as in modern times: neither is it supposed they were known by the name or style of Mason. All we wish to have understood is, that Noah, and others after him, embraced and taught such geometrical and moral principles as were fundamental in the first establishment of the Institution, when duly organized, and such as are essential in the system of Speculative Masonry as it now exists. We, therefore, mean to say, that many principles peculiar to our Institution were understood and patronised by those men. Such, we feel confident, is the fact. Hence we claim them as ancient patrons, because through their hands have been transmitted those excellent principles which now characterize Speculative Masonry.” (Salem Town, A System of Speculative Masonry (Salem, NY. Printed by Dodd and Stevenson, 1818), 55-56)

Still, it doesn't matter because the concept of pure and spurious Masonry is not found in the Book of Mormon. There is only one origin of the secret signs, words, and oaths--Satan. The Book of Mormon reflects anti-Masonic rhetoric, not the views of Oliver.

[Res Ipsa]

It seems someone has taken issue with what I wrote about George Oliver.

The Masonic scholars who have done the most research on George Oliver believed that he wholeheartedly believed in the orthodox school of thought on Masonic history that Adam went through Masonic rituals in the Garden of Eden and that he ran his descendants through those degrees after his being kicked out.

Well, how could that be since the first three degrees deal with Hiram Abiff, the Master Mason who worked on Solomon's temple? The key words also come from the temple. Salem Town explained how some Masonic authors could speculate about Adam and the patriarchs.

Let it be remarked in this place, and carefully recollected by every reader, that when mention is made of Noah, Abram, Moses and others who lived before the building of the first temple, that the Masonic character and knowledge of those persons is to be understood in a qualified sense. It is not meant to be asserted that they belonged to regular bodies, and associated as members of this Institution, It is not pretended that they were initiated into the Order, as in modern times: neither is it supposed they were known by the name or style of Mason. All we wish to have understood is, that Noah, and others after him, embraced and taught such geometrical and moral principles as were fundamental in the first establishment of the Institution, when duly organized, and such as are essential in the system of Speculative Masonry as it now exists. We, therefore, mean to say, that many principles peculiar to our Institution were understood and patronised by those men. Such, we feel confident, is the fact. Hence we claim them as ancient patrons, because through their hands have been transmitted those excellent principles which now characterize Speculative Masonry.” (Salem Town, A System of Speculative Masonry (Salem, NY. Printed by Dodd and Stevenson, 1818), 55-56)

Still, it doesn't matter because the concept of pure and spurious Masonry is not found in the Book of Mormon. There is only one origin of the secret signs, words, and oaths--Satan. The Book of Mormon reflects anti-Masonic rhetoric, not the views of Oliver.

Hi Dan. Gentle reminder to please use an emphasis color other than red. Otherwise you'll be involuntarily drafted into the moderator corps and, trust me, you don't want that. Thanks and carry on.