Loving the Mormons, hating their church

[drumdude]

What's interesting is that I didn't really notice how bad it can be until I hit the church-critical forums on the internet. I'm dismayed at how often such forums can lump Latter-day Saints or Utahns as some monolithic whole to be judged harshly. When someone does something bad, it happens because people do bad things. But when a Latter-day Saint does something bad, it happened because they were a Latter-day Saint.

I been told over and over that I'm incapable of having critical thinking skills, or that I must be a racist, or that I must leave entirely, merely because I'm a Latter-day Saint. Despite the person having had no prior contact with me, they just know my demographic and judge me by it.

Overgeneralizing others is horrid. Being lumped into a "them" and judged by it hurts. You feel like your actions and ethics must be significantly above average just to get equal treatment, and even then you often don't get equal treatment despite hard effort on your end.

I try to live my life with something I call API... assume positive intent...

Exactly. This rule of thumb also helps you see that others may be trying to go about constructive and friendly approaches in life but their path may contradict your path. Don't get mad at people who deep down are seeking to improve constructively.

Paired with the "assume positive extent" is "Judge as a person, not as part of a group." I could easily think of my neighbors as "The Mexican, the lesbian, the evangelical, the hoarder, the dirty house". But I won't. They are are "Carl, Alice, Bob, Liz, and Beth" (obviously not their real names of course). People are complex and lumping to judge them harshly does them a disservice.

I've been wondering about this a lot lately. How do you lead Mormons to think critically about their religion without creating a negative experience for them?

Mormons like this read criticism of their beliefs, their church, and their leaders. And they internalize it. They believe they are being personally attacked.

Is that misunderstanding the critic's fault, or the believer's?

Clearly Mormons think that it's possible to love the sinner and hate the sin. Why can't they see it's possible to love the Mormon and hate their church?

[Kishkumen]

I don’t see it as my responsibility or goal to make Mormons think more critically about their religion. If I did, I would be elsewhere conversing with a lot more active LDS people, not here.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

If you’re an active member of the Bolshevik Party, are you a communist? If you’re an active member of a church that teaches objectively absurd things and protects men who rape children, are you a cultist? Can cultists be good people? Can a fascist be a good person? A communist? An authoritarian? Can a cultist be clever, book smart, wise, or otherwise exceptional? Yes.

Nothing is black and white. Some authoritarians are vegan dog lovers. Others love their kids. Some don’t drink, smoke, or take mind altering drugs.

Whatever the case may be, the faithful OP is myopic and creating a victim narrative. I don’t go to political rallies, strip clubs, or biker bars because I don’t want to be associated with those people. If OP doesn’t want to be lumped in with dumbass shills who are idiots for believing in idiotic things, then perhaps they should stop doing that.

- Doc

[drumdude]

If you’re an active member of the Bolshevik Party, are you a communist? If you’re an active member of a church that teaches objectively absurd things and protects men who rape children, are you a cultist? Can cultists be good people? Can a fascist be a good person? A communist? An authoritarian? Can a cultist be clever, book smart, wise, or otherwise exceptional? Yes.

Nothing is black and white. Some authoritarians are vegan dog lovers. Others love their kids. Some don’t drink, smoke, or take mind altering drugs.

Whatever the case may be, the faithful OP is myopic and creating a victim narrative. I don’t go to political rallies, strip clubs, or biker bars because I don’t want to be associated with those people. If OP doesn’t want to be lumped in with dumbass shills who are idiots for believing in idiotic things, then perhaps they should stop doing that.

- Doc

Somewhat agree, although many in my ward were visibly uncomfortable with some of the Anti-LGBT stuff the church was doing around 2015.

I think that 80 percent of the people in my ward were completely decent. Then there was the vocal 20% of fanatical supporters of the Brethren who wanted it known how fervently they believed every fast Sunday.

[IHAQ]

I could easily think of my neighbors as "The Mexican, the lesbian, the evangelical, the hoarder, the dirty house". But I won't.

Erm, you just did.

[drumdude]

Erm, you just did.

To play devils advocate I think he believes his fellow Mormons may be doing that.

[MG 2.0]

Erm, you just did.

To play devils advocate I think he believes his fellow Mormons may be doing that.

That might take IHAQ some time to process.

Sorry, IHAQ, I couldn’t resist.

Regards,
MG

[Salvete]

If you’re an active member of the Bolshevik Party, are you a communist? If you’re an active member of a church that teaches objectively absurd things and protects men who rape children, are you a cultist? Can cultists be good people? Can a fascist be a good person? A communist? An authoritarian? Can a cultist be clever, book smart, wise, or otherwise exceptional? Yes.

Nothing is black and white. Some authoritarians are vegan dog lovers. Others love their kids. Some don’t drink, smoke, or take mind altering drugs.

Whatever the case may be, the faithful OP is myopic and creating a victim narrative. I don’t go to political rallies, strip clubs, or biker bars because I don’t want to be associated with those people. If OP doesn’t want to be lumped in with dumbass shills who are idiots for believing in idiotic things, then perhaps they should stop doing that.

- Doc

This is an absurd thing to believe.

I’m sure there are some people who live in Florida who don’t agree with Ron DeSantis and all of the terrible policies he is putting in place. I don’t think all Floridians are hardline right-wingers just because they live there and don’t move.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

If you’re an active member of the Bolshevik Party, are you a communist? If you’re an active member of a church that teaches objectively absurd things and protects men who rape children, are you a cultist? Can cultists be good people? Can a fascist be a good person? A communist? An authoritarian? Can a cultist be clever, book smart, wise, or otherwise exceptional? Yes.

Nothing is black and white. Some authoritarians are vegan dog lovers. Others love their kids. Some don’t drink, smoke, or take mind altering drugs.

Whatever the case may be, the faithful OP is myopic and creating a victim narrative. I don’t go to political rallies, strip clubs, or biker bars because I don’t want to be associated with those people. If OP doesn’t want to be lumped in with dumbass shills who are idiots for believing in idiotic things, then perhaps they should stop doing that.

- Doc

This is an absurd thing to believe.

I’m sure there are some people who live in Florida who don’t agree with Ron DeSantis and all of the terrible policies he is putting in place. I don’t think all Floridians are hardline right-wingers just because they live there and don’t move.

That’s an absurd whatabout. You don’t belong to Florida the Organization. A citizen can belong to a political party to influence how Floridians live, but a Floridian doesn’t belong to a particular political party other than by choice. That’d be akin to me saying you’re a fascist if you were a Nazi, and you come back at me sayin nOt AlL gErMaNs wErE nAzIs! Yeah, no crap.

- Doc

[IHAQ]

Erm, you just did.

To play devils advocate I think he believes his fellow Mormons may be doing that.

I disagree. They are writing within the context of their rules for life and what they may or may not do. Their conjecture was about how they might choose to pejoratively categorise their neighbours, and in so doing they’ve completed the exercise of pejoratively categorising their neighbours.

I understand they think they’re commenting on what others may or may not do. But in so doing they have completed the “judging” they say they don’t do.