Congratulations Are In Order For DCP And 'Witnesses'

[Alphus and Omegus]

For Heaven’s sake, “Witnesses” wasn’t that bad. In fact, for having a budget of only one million dollars, it was actually quite good.

Sure, there were plenty of things I would’ve done differently, but I’m literally—not figuratively, but literally—amazed that far more of our LDS friends didn’t see it than actually did. It’s bizarre.

I’m with you, Shades. I thought Witnesses was an enjoyable movie. A little odd in places but quite enjoyable. Thanks to Everybody Wang Chung, I have my own Blu-ray copy and wish I could host a viewing party at my place.

Not to toot my own horn here, but I believe the reason "Witnesses" did so poorly can be found in my earlier "4 types of LDS Mormons" thread. The vast majority of COJCOLDS members are Orthodox and have little to no interest in actually thinking about their faith. They go to church on Sundays and read the scriptures and the manuals. There's no need for anything else, save for an occasional GA-authored book.

The Modulated Mormons don't believe in the Book of Mormon or don't think the witnesses story matters at all, the Far-Right Mormons don't need to watch some movie by "leftist" BYU professors to know the Book of Mormon is true, and the Neo-Orthodox group is so tiny that even if they all saw the movie, it would be less than 5,000 people.

[Physics Guy]

Do you think the gap between Orthodox and Neo-Orthodox is so great now that what is faith-promoting for Neo-Orthodox is faith-threatening for Orthodox? Like, do Orthodox still believe—or at least really want to believe—that Joseph Smith only ever had one wife, and so being told that his polygamy was sincerely religious disturbs them more than being told he was a con artist?

And even if the Orthodox don't know many details about Neo-Orthodoxy, are they by now at least aware enough of it to fear anything that sounds as though it might be part of it?

That might explain why a lot of earnest Mormons didn't just accidentally miss seeing Witnesses, but actively avoided it, in spite of its presentation as faith-supporting. Extreme Protestants might have avoided The Passion of the Christ because it was made by an ultra-Catholic, and so it probably wouldn't be showing their Jesus. In the same way Orthodox Mormons might have been sure that Witnesses wouldn't be showing their Joseph Smith.

[Alphus and Omegus]

Do you think the gap between Orthodox and Neo-Orthodox is so great now that what is faith-promoting for Neo-Orthodox is faith-threatening for Orthodox? Like, do Orthodox still believe—or at least really want to believe—that Joseph Smith only ever had one wife, and so being told that his polygamy was sincerely religious disturbs them more than being told he was a con artist?

And even if the Orthodox don't know many details about Neo-Orthodoxy, are they by now at least aware enough of it to fear anything that sounds as though it might be part of it?

I would guess that most have never heard of Smith's polygamy, but even if they had, they would not view it differently than Brigham Young's. I have seen responses of this nature generally when I have raised it as a topic: Smith and Young were both prophets and prophets cannot lead the church astray, therefore it was righteous, even if we cannot understand it.

But I think you are definitely correct that there are some topics in and of themselves which may be terrifying to Orthodox Mormons to even consider. Such Orthodox types regard mopologists with suspicion because they rightfully see them as trying to intellectualize faith or to make concessions to "anti-Mormons." This is 100% how the Far-Right Mormons view FAIR or Interpreter, from what I have seen.

That might explain why a lot of earnest Mormons didn't just accidentally miss seeing Witnesses, but actively avoided it, in spite of its presentation as faith-supporting. Extreme Protestants might have avoided The Passion of the Christ because it was made by an ultra-Catholic, and so it probably wouldn't be showing their Jesus. In the same way Orthodox Mormons might have been sure that Witnesses wouldn't be showing their Joseph Smith.

I think that would be a reason for the Far-Right Mormons to avoid the movie, for sure. The Orthodox were never even aware that "Witnesses" existed at all.

That said, I can see many Orthodox types enjoying the movie if Deseret Book could be persuaded to promote it. That seems unlikely to happen, however, because DB is controlled by the General Authorities and they have realized that they don't need to expose members to controversies voluntarily. It's not persuasive or scholarly at all anyway so the film doesn't really serve any particular COJCOLDS purpose. Like Neo-Orthodox Mormonism generally, "Witnesses" is neither fish nor foul and thus generally irrelevant.

[drumdude]

donsalmon: "What is your interest in all this? Are you a theologian, pastor, contemplative writer?"

I'm a retired professor of Islamic studies and Arabic at Brigham Young University, a historian of religion and of philosophical theology, and am myself a religious believer.

Interesting that apologist and film maker didn’t end up on his self description.

How much of his blog is devoted to Islamic studies and Arabic? His pick-a-prof score is dismal, probably because he was teaching something he was only secondarily interested in. The real flame was for winning debates with atheists and Christians.

[huckelberry]

Do you think the gap between Orthodox and Neo-Orthodox is so great now that what is faith-promoting for Neo-Orthodox is faith-threatening for Orthodox? Like, do Orthodox still believe—or at least really want to believe—that Joseph Smith only ever had one wife, and so being told that his polygamy was sincerely religious disturbs them more than being told he was a con artist?

And even if the Orthodox don't know many details about Neo-Orthodoxy, are they by now at least aware enough of it to fear anything that sounds as though it might be part of it?

That might explain why a lot of earnest Mormons didn't just accidentally miss seeing Witnesses, but actively avoided it, in spite of its presentation as faith-supporting. Extreme Protestants might have avoided The Passion of the Christ because it was made by an ultra-Catholic, and so it probably wouldn't be showing their Jesus. In the same way Orthodox Mormons might have been sure that Witnesses wouldn't be showing their Joseph Smith.

Hopefully this is just a bit of clarification for context. I am pretty sure that the idea Joseph Smith had only one wife is held only by a few casual Mormons. The fundamental explanation of the requirements is in the Doctrine and Coventants sec 132. No active Mormon has any sort of excuse not to be familiar with it. Ignorance of it is certainly not tradtional. Perhaps being unaware of the extent of Joseph Smiths marriages is common.

sec 132 v 52: And let mine handmaid Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph and who are virtuous and pure before... etc.

[Tom]

My soul mate and helpmeet and I are planning to invite two neighbor couples over this Monday to listen to the podcast and to munch on loads of buttered popcorn and down some cold ones (A&with). (Have I mentioned here my love for good popcorn?) We’ve all seen Witnesses. (My “Ess-O” says she liked it; I think she has a bit of a crush on the actor who played Oliver Cowdery in the film.) It should make for a wholesome Family Home Evening.

Shamrock Lakes, Indiana

On Monday, my soul mate and I enjoyed a wonderful Family Home Evening with four neighbors of ours--two of whom have doctorates and all of whom have at least strong master's degrees from prestigious schools. After enjoying fondue and hunks of warm bread, we feasted on a buffet of delicious Johnny cakes and cured ham in honor of Joseph Smith.

Following dinner, we prepared hot, fresh gourmet popcorn on the stove and popped open frosty bottles of A&with. For the next two hours, we ate, drank, and took in the God Awful Movies podcast's review of Witnesses. (One of our neighbors is profanity intolerant, so I ran the podcast stream through the PodAngel app to censor any expletives.) We then had a lively discussion and debate about the GAM review and the film itself.

We ended the evening by listening to one of our guests--who, incidentally, has a master's degree from a highly-ranked music school and is a very serious vocalist--deliver a moving rendition of "O, give me back my Prophet dear" (words by John Taylor, who, of course was the third president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and is an ancestor of mine). Another neighbor provided accompaniment on a vintage violin.

I can safely report that all of us are looking forward to seeing Six Days in August in the theater in 2024. (The Relief Society sister in Parowan may be able to secure us tickets to opening night.)

Life is good.

Some excerpts from the podcast:

“Who is this movie for? . . . The thing is that rank-and-file Mormons do not know this story.  They only know, like, the barebones, white-washed version of this story.  You know, three good men witnessed the golden plates. That’s it.  But then the Internet happened, and now word is getting out about, like, the deeply problematic stuff.  So I guess the filmmakers, they literally break their backs trying to get out in front of all that [PodAngel beep]; even though they’re trying to provide plausible cover for the disturbing bits, all they’re really doing is making ignorant Mormons aware of how messed up their history actually is.  So the Mormons who are looking for a heart-warming, devotional film are going to hate it.  And it sure as [PodAngel beep] isn’t going to convince any non-Mormons to join up, so who the [PodAngel beep] is it for?” 

====

“If you’re wondering by the way, David Whitmer is the Stuart Sutcliffe of Mormonism, right?  Like not even the four-member Beatles.  He’s the fifth member of the Beatles that was at like two jam sessions.  Don’t worry, this entire film will be focused on the fact that for the rest of his life, he was like, 'I ain’t no liaarrr!'” 

====
“We cut to Palmyra, New York, it’s 1827.  We see this actor and right away I’m like, ‘Wow, he’s significantly better looking than all the other actors we’ve seen.  I bet that’s Joseph Smith.”

“Okay, if Mormon Movie Month has given us anything, it is Mormons getting more and more confident over time at how much they can lie about how Joseph Smith looked.  Because it’s like, when we started doing the early ahistorical films, you know, they’d clean up a little at the end.  Neeee.  They’d make him the same height as everyone else.  But now he’s just [PodAngel beep] Jim Caviezel [PodAngel beep] descending down from the clouds chopping down trees with his jawline.”

“I think this may have been our cutest Joseph Smith.  I think he may have been the best looking.” 

“The twunkiest.” 

“And he starts another tradition in this movie, which is the anachronistic haircut, ‘cause he’s gone full Bieber.  I wonder what pomade they had in 18-whatever the [PodAngel beep].  If you look at pictures of the Three Witnesses, they have some wackadoodle hair.  So it’s very sad that we didn’t get that; if they had given me that much historical accuracy, I would have been on board for this movie the entire way.” 

“I might’ve have been a Mormon.”
====

“Now this is the scene where Joseph Smith gets the plates and he has to get it home, but all the brigands are waiting for him along the way, so this is like an opening action sequence of Mormonism, right?”

“And we mentioned it in the opening sketch, but it is worth pointing out that, at minimum, these plates are 140 pounds because Joseph couldn’t stop lying about their dimensions. So if they were actually gold, they would, again, be at least 140 pounds.”

“Probably closer to 200.”

“And Joseph Smith had a life-long limp, which they got rid of for this movie….”

“That makes it a lot easier.” 

“So him [PodAngel beep] backflipping around with these plates.  We make it zero seconds into the backstory of this movie before we’re like ‘Annnnddd there’s the lie.’  And I love the fact that he is retrieving these plates from, you know--listen, when you’re the Lord’s anointed and you’re hiding the most precious treasure the world has ever known—probably just under some bark is fine….”

“And Eli is barely [PodAngel beep] exaggerating when he says he backflips his way around with these [PodAngel beep] things.  This is like their version of the opening of Casino Royale, right?  The parkour scene or whatever?”

“It’s forest parkour all the way.  He is bouncing off of trees, clonking dudes on the head.  And he’s a ninja.  He keeps--”

“No, he’s [PodAngel beep] Batman at a certain point, yes.”

“He’s popping up—he was over here and now he’s over here.  Him and an angel do an arm-swing kick on two guys’ faces.” 

“At one point, he actually knocks one [PodAngel beep] out with the golden plates.  I was like, ‘that would be like having a scene in a Jesus movie where he starts swinging the cross around like Jackie Chan with a ladder in First Strike or something.’”

[Philo Sofee]

My soul mate and helpmeet and I are planning to invite two neighbor couples over this Monday to listen to the podcast and to munch on loads of buttered popcorn and down some cold ones (A&with). (Have I mentioned here my love for good popcorn?) We’ve all seen Witnesses. (My “Ess-O” says she liked it; I think she has a bit of a crush on the actor who played Oliver Cowdery in the film.) It should make for a wholesome Family Home Evening.

Shamrock Lakes, Indiana

On Monday, my soul mate and I enjoyed a wonderful Family Home Evening with four neighbors of ours--two of whom have doctorates and all of whom have at least strong master's degrees from prestigious schools. After enjoying fondue and hunks of warm bread, we feasted on a buffet of delicious Johnny cakes and cured ham in honor of Joseph Smith.

Following dinner, we prepared hot, fresh gourmet popcorn on the stove and popped open frosty bottles of A&with. For the next two hours, we ate, drank, and took in the God Awful Movies podcast's review of Witnesses. (One of our neighbors is profanity intolerant, so I ran the podcast stream through the PodAngel app to censor any expletives.) We then had a lively discussion and debate about the GAM review and the film itself.

We ended the evening by listening to one of our guests--who, incidentally, has a master's degree from a highly-ranked music school and is a very serious vocalist--deliver a moving rendition of "O, give me back my Prophet dear" (words by John Taylor, who, of course was the third president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and is an ancestor of mine). Another neighbor provided accompaniment on a vintage violin.

I can safely report that all of us are looking forward to seeing Six Days in August in the theater in 2024. (The Relief Society sister in Parowan may be able to secure us tickets to opening night.)

Life is good.

Some excerpts from the podcast:

“Who is this movie for? . . . The thing is that rank-and-file Mormons do not know this story.  They only know, like, the barebones, white-washed version of this story.  You know, three good men witnessed the golden plates. That’s it.  But then the Internet happened, and now word is getting out about, like, the deeply problematic stuff.  So I guess the filmmakers, they literally break their backs trying to get out in front of all that [PodAngel beep]; even though they’re trying to provide plausible cover for the disturbing bits, all they’re really doing is making ignorant Mormons aware of how messed up their history actually is.  So the Mormons who are looking for a heart-warming, devotional film are going to hate it.  And it sure as [PodAngel beep] isn’t going to convince any non-Mormons to join up, so who the [PodAngel beep] is it for?” 

====

“If you’re wondering by the way, David Whitmer is the Stuart Sutcliffe of Mormonism, right?  Like not even the four-member Beatles.  He’s the fifth member of the Beatles that was at like two jam sessions.  Don’t worry, this entire film will be focused on the fact that for the rest of his life, he was like, 'I ain’t no liaarrr!'” 

====
“We cut to Palmyra, New York, it’s 1827.  We see this actor and right away I’m like, ‘Wow, he’s significantly better looking than all the other actors we’ve seen.  I bet that’s Joseph Smith.”

“Okay, if Mormon Movie Month has given us anything, it is Mormons getting more and more confident over time at how much they can lie about how Joseph Smith looked.  Because it’s like, when we started doing the early ahistorical films, you know, they’d clean up a little at the end.  Neeee.  They’d make him the same height as everyone else.  But now he’s just [PodAngel beep] Jim Caviezel [PodAngel beep] descending down from the clouds chopping down trees with his jawline.”

“I think this may have been our cutest Joseph Smith.  I think he may have been the best looking.” 

“The twunkiest.” 

“And he starts another tradition in this movie, which is the anachronistic haircut, ‘cause he’s gone full Bieber.  I wonder what pomade they had in 18-whatever the [PodAngel beep].  If you look at pictures of the Three Witnesses, they have some wackadoodle hair.  So it’s very sad that we didn’t get that; if they had given me that much historical accuracy, I would have been on board for this movie the entire way.” 

“I might’ve have been a Mormon.”
====

“Now this is the scene where Joseph Smith gets the plates and he has to get it home, but all the brigands are waiting for him along the way, so this is like an opening action sequence of Mormonism, right?”

“And we mentioned it in the opening sketch, but it is worth pointing out that, at minimum, these plates are 140 pounds because Joseph couldn’t stop lying about their dimensions. So if they were actually gold, they would, again, be at least 140 pounds.”

“Probably closer to 200.”

“And Joseph Smith had a life-long limp, which they got rid of for this movie….”

“That makes it a lot easier.” 

“So him [PodAngel beep] backflipping around with these plates.  We make it zero seconds into the backstory of this movie before we’re like ‘Annnnddd there’s the lie.’  And I love the fact that he is retrieving these plates from, you know--listen, when you’re the Lord’s anointed and you’re hiding the most precious treasure the world has ever known—probably just under some bark is fine….”

“And Eli is barely [PodAngel beep] exaggerating when he says he backflips his way around with these [PodAngel beep] things.  This is like their version of the opening of Casino Royale, right?  The parkour scene or whatever?”

“It’s forest parkour all the way.  He is bouncing off of trees, clonking dudes on the head.  And he’s a ninja.  He keeps--”

“No, he’s [PodAngel beep] Batman at a certain point, yes.”

“He’s popping up—he was over here and now he’s over here.  Him and an angel do an arm-swing kick on two guys’ faces.” 

“At one point, he actually knocks one [PodAngel beep] out with the golden plates.  I was like, ‘that would be like having a scene in a Jesus movie where he starts swinging the cross around like Jackie Chan with a ladder in First Strike or something.’”

[drumdude]

Lmao I really hope DCP listened to the whole thing.

[Doctor Scratch]

I cheerfully predict that there will be zero response to this. What it proves is that the critics are winning in the mainstream sphere. In a separate thread, Dr. Robbers very astutely mentioned a “hole” that the Mopologists are trying to deal with. Younger Mormons are leaving, and Mopologetics isn’t helping. (That the Mopologists’ works are splashed all over the Internet is icing on the cake.) In the midst of all this you’ve got somebody like Mike Parker, posing as a Black man in order to try and facilitate a “schism” with the Heartlanders. Speaking of which: is “Neville-Neville Land” defunct?

[drumdude]

I’m taking a break from my very busy summer schedule to share what should be a warning to all Saints to not believe or follow the teachings of Rian Nelson, blogger and social media coordinator for Rod Meldrum’s Book of Mormon Evidence website.

For many years, Rian Nelson has been blogging and posting about his opposition to COVID-19 vaccines. He’s compared vaccines in general to sorcery and the occult and called pharmaceutical drugs “poisonous.” (Click here to see more examples of conspiracy theories he’s peddled.)

The problem of course with Rian Nelson’s anti-vaccine stance is that it’s in direct opposition to the repeated counsel of the First Presidency. This has forced him to make increasingly convoluted claims in order to justify his positions in the light of prophetic statements.

The funny part is, a lot of Mormons aren’t listening to Heartlanders. A lot of Mormons are conspiracy minded to begin with, and don’t trust vaccines because they don’t trust government. The significant number who disagreed with the brethren all on their own is the problem Parker needs to contend with.