Although there are conspiracy theories about creation of Christianity, I don’t think Stem’s argument is one of them.PseudoPaul wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:32 pmThe case has been made over and over and over again. You're not interested in the evidence, only your conspiracy theory.dastardly stem wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 3:53 pm
Alright, thanks for the posturing. if you have a case for historicity, I'm all ears.
The Jesus Myth: An unrelenting case for history
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Re: The Jesus Myth: An unrelenting case for history
he/him
When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
Benjamin Franklin
When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
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Re: The Jesus Myth: An unrelenting case for history
I remember the good old days when Drs. Peterson, Hamblin, Midgley, et al. would cite Peter Novick’s That Noble Dream at every opportunity. It really gave them a lot of mileage in terms of responding to critics who would bring up historical accounts that were unflattering to the Church. At some point, though, they completely tossed that out the window and now historical accounts are pretty much iron-clad truth.Kishkumen wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:07 pmSure, take seriously. But in what sense? I say Jesus existed, but I am uncertain about the resurrection as a historical matter. The evidence is just not good enough to be certain. Faith in the resurrection is a different question.drumdude wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:46 pmA related tangent:
DCP has been making the argument (well just copying it from someone else like always) that if we take anything from ancient history seriously, we should also take the empty tomb story seriously.
He thinks that there’s enough wiggle room to get his lever into the gap made by the scholarly consensus that Jesus existed, to lift the entire hypothesis that Jesus must have been raised from the dead.
Thoughts?
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Re: The Jesus Myth: An unrelenting case for history
Literally any explanation is more plausible than a dead person coming back to life.”kyler responding to the grave of Christ being robbed” wrote: Grave robbing please.
I don't see the burial practices as particularly relevant to the question, since obviously people were often buried with their stuff, and though I don't see Christ as the type to have much stuff to be buried with, grave robbers wouldn't necessarily know that.
But my point stands, I think. People at the time obviously saw the disciples as the more likely culprits, so why would you prefer the more strained grave robbing hypothesis? Sure, robbers may have bribed the guards and they may have dumped the body nearby, and it may not have been discovered (despite what likely would've been a very thorough search), but that's a lot of maybes, and they'd all be equally applicable to the disciples themselves. I just don't see any more reason to prefer it than the Pharisees apparently saw.
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Re: The Jesus Myth: An unrelenting case for history
Lol. I"m trying here. You have something, all ears.PseudoPaul wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:32 pmThe case has been made over and over and over again. You're not interested in the evidence, only your conspiracy theory.dastardly stem wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 3:53 pm
Alright, thanks for the posturing. if you have a case for historicity, I'm all ears.
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Re: The Jesus Myth: An unrelenting case for history
Apparently he's listening to some pretty prominent Christian apologists on this. That's the typical route taken.drumdude wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:46 pmA related tangent:
DCP has been making the argument (well just copying it from someone else like always) that if we take anything from ancient history seriously, we should also take the empty tomb story seriously.
He thinks that there’s enough wiggle room to get his lever into the gap made by the scholarly consensus that Jesus existed, to lift the entire hypothesis that Jesus must have been raised from the dead.
Thoughts?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: The Jesus Myth: An unrelenting case for history
Conspiracy theories? How can you get anymore conspirial than a reanimated dead person?dastardly stem wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:54 pmLol. I"m trying here. You have something, all ears.PseudoPaul wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:32 pm
The case has been made over and over and over again. You're not interested in the evidence, only your conspiracy theory.
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Re: The Jesus Myth: An unrelenting case for history
It's been shown to you over and over again. You just say "nuh uh" and move on.dastardly stem wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:54 pmLol. I"m trying here. You have something, all ears.PseudoPaul wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:32 pm
The case has been made over and over and over again. You're not interested in the evidence, only your conspiracy theory.
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Re: The Jesus Myth: An unrelenting case for history
The idea that Jesus was never a historical person is quite literally a conspiracy theory, one with almost no support in mainstream secular Biblical scholarship.Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 2:01 amAlthough there are conspiracy theories about creation of Christianity, I don’t think Stem’s argument is one of them.PseudoPaul wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:32 pm
The case has been made over and over and over again. You're not interested in the evidence, only your conspiracy theory.
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Re: The Jesus Myth: An unrelenting case for history
I haven't seen where. I've read the scholarship and have read the pop books like Erhman's. I've critiqued his book here to some degree of depth. I've interacted with some of the most ardent historicists. I'm not sure what you think you're proving by saying these things.PseudoPaul wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:08 pmIt's been shown to you over and over again. You just say "nuh uh" and move on.
All of that said, I'm still quite interested in any credible case someone can present. If you have it, please stop dodging and provide something.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
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Re: The Jesus Myth: An unrelenting case for history
Yep.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos