Vogel's book, Hale reviews and Vogel responds.

[Marcus]

all I get,

Huck, In my reply to you above, I explained, but here is some more detail:

We are being stymied by the auto-correct of "𝙗𝒐𝙤𝒌𝙤𝒇𝙢𝒐𝙧𝒎𝙤𝒏" on this (discussmormonism) site to "Book of Mormon".

Use the URL that marcus provided, but remove the two "%20" strings, and lowercase the "B" and the "M". Or, if you prefer, you can click the "Quote" button (on marcus' post), copy the un-corrected URL from the quoted text, and then cancel the quote. Then paste the uncorrected URL into a browser window/tab.

Alternative: search for "The Book of Mormon - Artifact or Artifice? - Orson Scott Card" and use the link from nauvoo.com

Thanks malkie, i appreciate your help very much!

Such weirdnesses in autocorrect. Oy vie.

[yellowstone123]

And a lady who I gave my 2.5 minutes talks when we we were both baptized at age 8 in 1969, says Utah is done with Romney. She been such a success, served a mission and made big bucks in real estate in Salt Lake, And I'm such a colossal failure. She will do well...!

[malkie]

Huck, In my reply to you above, I explained, but here is some more detail:

We are being stymied by the auto-correct of "𝙗𝒐𝙤𝒌𝙤𝒇𝙢𝒐𝙧𝒎𝙤𝒏" on this (discussmormonism) site to "Book of Mormon".

Use the URL that marcus provided, but remove the two "%20" strings, and lowercase the "B" and the "M". Or, if you prefer, you can click the "Quote" button (on marcus' post), copy the un-corrected URL from the quoted text, and then cancel the quote. Then paste the uncorrected URL into a browser window/tab.

Alternative: search for "The Book of Mormon - Artifact or Artifice? - Orson Scott Card" and use the link from nauvoo.com

Thanks malkie, i appreciate your help very much!

Such weirdnesses in autocorrect. Oy vie.

Mystery remains - for you, dear professor, to solve

Look at the blue line above.

• What do you see there that you should not be able to see?
• How did malkie do that?

[sock puppet]

Orson Scott Card talked about the Book of Mormon in this 1993 talk at byu. Here's the first couple of paragraphs, and a link to the rest:

The Book of Mormon - Artifact or Artifice?

By Orson Scott Card
Adapted from a speech given at the BYU Symposium on Life, the Universe, and Everything

February 1993

The Book of Mormon is the most important book in my life. I remember it as one of the earliest things I read, starting with Emma Mar Peterson's children's adaptation. The illustrations in that book still linger in my mind as what black and white illustrations should look like. Soon I graduated to The Book of Mormon itself. I've read it many, many times.

It shows up in my style. Anybody who wonders why practically every sentence begins with "and," "then," "but" -- you just have to think of the phrase "And it came to pass," and you will understand where that comes from. You see, if a sentence is important and true, I instinctively feel that it must begin with a conjunction.

But the influence is much deeper than style. It was the Book of Mormon that brought me to BYU as a student. My high school grades were such that I could have taken my pick of schools, but I applied only here, because I intended to become an archaeologist and work on understanding the Book of Mormon. I saw no point in going to any school that did not take the Book of Mormon seriously as an ancient document referring to real-world events...

http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-Book of Mormon.html

Doesn't Orson Scott Card here prove too much? His own experience of reading a book over and over impacted his own writing style? That's exactly what Joseph Smith's reading, re-reading and study of the Bible did to him--it impacted his writing and oratory style and so made it easier for him to compose a Bible scripture-like tome, the Book of Mormon.

[huckelberry]

If you prefer, you can click the "Quote" button, copy the un-corrected URL from the quoted text, and then cancel the quote.

Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again

Malkie, thanks I was able to get to the article in question. Well some sort of thanks. The article pursues observations of possible interest but may press too far. Actually I was only able to get half way through before I started skimming. Perhaps I will return to it.

from the article

Lineage. Furthermore, when we do find social classes in the Book of Mormon, political divisions, they seem to reflect alien to anything Joseph Smith was familiar with. To Joseph Smith, social classes were based entirely on money, which was displayed in the form of property. Where money is the basis of social distinction in the Book of Mormon, it is never associated with land, but rather with fine clothing. This is entirely consistent with Meso-America, but hardly a pattern Joseph Smith would have known.

I really was not able to see this proposal as at all realistic. There is quite a few similar observations which struck me as stretched.

[sock puppet]

from the article

Lineage. Furthermore, when we do find social classes in the Book of Mormon, political divisions, they seem to reflect alien to anything Joseph Smith was familiar with. To Joseph Smith, social classes were based entirely on money, which was displayed in the form of property. Where money is the basis of social distinction in the Book of Mormon, it is never associated with land, but rather with fine clothing. This is entirely consistent with Meso-America, but hardly a pattern Joseph Smith would have known.

Joseph Smith must have never made it into Palmyra or Manchester, etc. if he never noticed that some people had fine clothing but others did not.

[malkie]

If you prefer, you can click the "Quote" button, copy the un-corrected URL from the quoted text, and then cancel the quote.

Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again

Malkie, thanks I was able to get to the article in question. Well some sort of thanks. The article pursues observations of possible interest but may press too far. Actually I was only able to get half way through before I started skimming. Perhaps I will return to it.

from the article

Lineage. Furthermore, when we do find social classes in the Book of Mormon, political divisions, they seem to reflect alien to anything Joseph Smith was familiar with. To Joseph Smith, social classes were based entirely on money, which was displayed in the form of property. Where money is the basis of social distinction in the Book of Mormon, it is never associated with land, but rather with fine clothing. This is entirely consistent with Meso-America, but hardly a pattern Joseph Smith would have known.

I really was not able to see this proposal as at all realistic. There is quite a few similar observations which struck me as stretched.

Hahaha - I got bored quite quickly too.

OSC wrote some (in my opinion) good fiction, and should perhaps stick to that genre. Oh, wait - perhaps he does

I do understand your damning me with faint praise ("Well some sort of thanks."). Please note that I simply made it easier for you to find the article - I didn't/wouldn't recommend it

[huckelberry]

from the article

Joseph Smith must have never made it into Palmyra or Manchester, etc. if he never noticed that some people had fine clothing but others did not.

Sock Puppet you have already pointed out the most obvious source of views of cultures different than Smiths own, the Bible. The Bible would be a reference to a different older culture that both possible author of Book of Mormon and audience would share. It is possible of course that he was familiar with other stories of kings and older times.

I thought that the clothing thing was a bit of a sermon cliché. I do not have a survey but have heard remark before.

James ch2 :My bretheren show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ the Lord of glory. For if a man with gold rings and in fine clothing comes into your assembly and a poor man in shabby clothing comes in and you pay attention to the one with fine clothes,have a seat here, while to the poor man you just say stand there, have you not made distinctions and made yourselves judges with evil thoughts.