If plates then God

[Philo Sofee]

God doesn't do anything about suffering and helping little children as Res Ipsa has so powerfully hammered into your Mormon-thick skull does he? He sits back and does nothing and expects US to do it? Nope. Show us you care first God, set the example.

Philo, I think you have a very narrow view of what and who God is and what Jesus is capable of.

Regards,
MG

I go with the evidence MG. It's very narrow, so that makes sense I also have a narrow view.

[Philo Sofee]

I don't believe the gold plates, that is, until actual evidencee of their existence shows up (not some other examples of other metal plates). Faith can't produce the plates, but God can, and should.

That’s awfully presumptuous of you to command God.

Jesus had something to say about folks like you.

Regards,
MaG

Did I command God MG? Lol...

[Philo Sofee]

God doesn't do anything about suffering and helping little children as Res Ipsa has so powerfully hammered into your Mormon-thick skull does he? He sits back and does nothing and expects US to do it? Nope. Show us you care first God, set the example.

This does raise a disturbing question or three.

1. If God does not care, why are humans supposed to care?

2. If the suffering is inconsequential to an eternal post-mortal existence (and didn’t exist pre-mortal), then what purpose does it serve at all?

3. If the suffering is arbitrary for the eternal to impose, yet painful for the mortal to experience, then just what kind of beings are we ‘progressing’ into as immortality is achieved, if this is what we deal out?

I would propose this will help us become much better gods than the ones running this show.

[tagriffy]

God doesn't do anything about suffering and helping little children as Res Ipsa has so powerfully hammered into your Mormon-thick skull does he? He sits back and does nothing and expects US to do it? Nope. Show us you care first God, set the example.

Philo, I think you have a very narrow view of what and who God is and what Jesus is capable of.

Regards,
MG

Funny. I've been thinking the same thing about you.

[Marcus]

The rock looks like a rock. The plates look like plates. There is a difference.

Can you see what that might be?

MG is hopelessly confused. The rock was a "sleeper" device while plates impart their full provenance upon a bare glimpse. Not.

MG is thinking that when a person views the seer stone, because of it's cloaking tech, it's not impressive. But the plates reveal the full force of their ancientness without any mitigation. Unfortunately for the faithful, as stated, there actually aren't any witnesses who ever got enough of a view of them to behold their glory, even if they were authentic. There are no witnesses to the brilliant ancientness of the plates with natural eyes, even if in theory one could behold an ancient object and know immediately that it's ancient. But, one cannot simply behold a set of metal plates and know they are ancient. Smiths plates, if he had anything at all, could have been just like the Kinderhook plates and fooled every single one of these non-experts.

and if anything existed, odds are overwhelming they were the product of a con. Every time there is evidence available to evaluate (papyri, kinderhook plates), it turns out Smith was wrong in his stories and interpretations. There is no reason to think any occurence of 'plates' would anything different.

Why is MG so wrong? Because once again, he's "running with scissors" inventing arguments Bushman didn't make. When this thread finishes, I may go back and document all of MG's misreadings of Bushman. Recall this proper summary of Bushman:

Sure, the Book of Mormon as we have it was produced through the seer stone, but the plates--or at least the stories surrounding them--are an essential part of the mythos

A concise home run by Tagriffy, which stands in sharp contrast to MG missing the ball with nearly every swing. One of his comments partially connected, and I responded to that with due credit, but everything else has been sheer strikeout.

Yes. He starts by assuming his conclusion, which means there is no way his ad hoc rationales will be consistent.

Anyway, Tagriffy is dead on, it's the mythos of real ancient plates that has become essential to the founding narrative. It has nothing to do with the properties of plates vs. rocks, and certainly nothing to do with any plates Smith may have actually had. There isn't anything about physical plates in theory or as described by Smith that making them "super believable" by nature. It's really getting ridiculous.

It is.

[Gadianton]

MG, do you believe in the Book of Moses?

[huckelberry]

I think the seriousness of suffering in this world always puts a question mark for Gods existence. Yet I have questions about how this matter is being approached in this thread.

First I notice that people are not taking the matter to heart and refusing to have children. Any child is exposed to the possiblity of being brutalized and the fact that we do not know in advance for sure which child does not change the fact that having children always moves toward the awful events happening to some children.

But the complaints are focused upon the idea that we all had a choice in some preexistence when a choice was presented which would avoid the misery. From my outside of Mormonism view I do not think an alternative workable choice existed. Dealing with evil is not a game or test set up for spirits to prove themselves. Evil , that desire to abuse,to take advantage of,is not some artificial fall up for our testing pleasure. It is an existential threat we have within ourselves as a human family. And to be sure our existence is possible only within being a part of the human family with its problems.

Whether a person believes that the atonement is literal and a power working into eternity or If one thinks it is conceptual working limited to living in the present it is more than a get out jail free card for some game of advancement. It is medicine to move the human race away from its predatory lusts and toward responsible caring for others.

I do not believe a Noah flood ever happened but the fiction is thought about the problem underdiscussion. It presents an alternative to making the best of the world we have.

" The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
[12] And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Trying to use an LDS thinking cap I can still see some of the same consideration. I see no reason to think that Satan plan would actually work. It would have been a deception to garner power and limit others. Of course thinking that would imply that all of those preexisting children were not all solid angels but would have been like the humans we know, a troublesome lot.

///////
Yes I can see the question , why no guard rails? Perhaps there is no God beyond our hope for improvement. Perhaps the problem of human evil cannot be cut out without it being fully confronted. I am not going to claim to know for sure.

[tagriffy]

I think the seriousness of suffering in this world always puts a question mark for Gods existence.

I agree. While I do think Mormonism goes a long way to solving the problem by positing a God that has to work with material at hand and cannot violate natural scientific laws, the free agency side of the equation needs a lot of work, to say the least. Granted God has limitations in what he can actually do, and granted he cannot violate free agency. Nevertheless, it still seems there is a lot more he could do. Suppose someone were pointing a gun at you and was in the act of pulling the trigger. I jump in and deflect the gunman's arm and as a result, the shot misses you. Have I violated the gunman's free agency? I can't see how.

I do not believe a Noah flood ever happened but the fiction is thought about the problem underdiscussion. It presents an alternative to making the best of the world we have.

" The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
[12] And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Interesting that you mentioned the Flood. That brought the sequel to my mind. Noah exits the ark and offers sacrifices to the Lord. "And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor, the Lord said in his heart, 'I will never again curse the ground because of humankind, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from his youth...'" (Gen. 8:21, NRSV). I only have a glimmer of an idea here, but the verse suggests that God reconcile himself to humanity as it is. I'm not sure where to take this thought from here or if it will actually help get us to a solution to the problem of evil. But maybe it is something to think about?

[Philo Sofee]

tagriffy
Nevertheless, it still seems there is a lot more he could do.

And given the teaching that God loves us MORE than we can ever even grasp, HE WOULD DO A LOT MORE. Therein is the rub. He doesn't violate free agency to save us from NEEDLESS suffering. An ever loving God would do more that is ever loving than is being done, hence the very real and strong doubts that arise if God even exists. WE would stop suffering, but God doesn't. That just does not make any kind of sense.

[MG 2.0]

Trying to use an LDS thinking cap I can still see some of the same consideration. I see no reason to think that Satan plan would actually work. It would have been a deception to garner power and limit others. Of course thinking that would imply that all of those preexisting children were not all solid angels but would have been like the humans we know, a troublesome lot.

And yet that “Satan plan” is the the one that is being promoted by individuals on this thread, if I’m not mistaken. If the plates were accessible for all to see and understand as being evidence of God. If children were somehow free from any harm or abuse through absolute force from the ‘good guys’. In other words, a god of this world that required no faith, made it known that he was god, and gave evidences galore of that fact.

My question has consistently been concerned with what kind of world would that be.

There would be no faith in the earth. Just knowledge. And external force to do god’s bidding. Then for what purpose are we here?

The plates were evidence…but we are free to choose, based upon our faith, whether they are evidence of God. So much of what goes on in this world forces us to choose faith or doubt.

But fortunately no forces that disallow sin and disobedience. The opposite doesn’t provide a happy picture.

As it is, Mormonism teaches that we are here to prove ourselves.

And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them.
Abraham 3:25

Some are going to blow it big time. People are harmed as a result. But that’s not on God. He provided His Son to perform the infinite atonement. And until you folks can come up with a better plan that is not a clone of Satan’s plan I would suggest you not continue to rip on a God who may know a whole lot more than you do about what makes the plan of salvation tick and has failsafes in place.

No decent human being condones evil. But it exists in an imperfect world consisting of imperfect people.

The arrogance that needs to be maintained to play armchair god is almost unimaginable.

If I recall, Jesus had to put up with shenanigans from lawyers and hypocrites back in the day.

Regards,
MG