Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

[Imwashingmypirate]

This is interesting. Some won’t like this but I plugged your statement into Pi A.I..

Here’s what I got:



Someone else here with more knowledge and expertise than me might be able to elaborate on Laplace’s Demon but to me it looks like the “hypothetical being” could be referred to as God. In and through all things knowing the end from the beginning. Even though we feel as though we have free will (and do as a matter of fact for all intents and purposes…accountability, guilt, joy in choosing right over wrong, etc….we do), God might be able to see it all from a perspective in which free will is redefined or calibrated differently.

Although I can’t say right this minute what that definition might be.

I know there have been some interesting discussions along the way as to whether or not God has free will.

Thanks for spurring me on to further thought, pirate.

Regards,
MG

It's worth noting that Laplace was before our understanding of quantum randomness - that the universe is not a completely deterministic set of small billiard balls bumping into each other. There is uncertainty and randomness baked in, such that even a perfected human like the Mormon God would not be able to see the future. One of many reasons Joseph Smith got it wrong.

I don't know about a Mormon God (human ascended). But I'm pretty sure it is taught that God is infinite, the alpha and omega, being able to see all time. I think with a little imagination that an infinite being outside of all dimensions (not parallel dimensions, space time and matter dimensions beyond our comprehension) would be able to know of all possible outcomes of people's lives and choices. That is that our beings experiencing time is not linear (from an outside perspective) to God but like a tree with lots of branches and as we make the choices other choices that would be derived from the initial choice no longer are available. Like the tree is the branches and we are walking to the twigs but we can't go back and move to a different branch, each new branch and twig coming off the branch we are on being a new choice. The rest of the tree goes away for us.

It is also said that God knows us. Some autistic people are so good at noticing patterns that it is like they can see things others don't. I was sitting near a severely autistic person. He can barely talk. He doesn't really communicate at all. And he said,"wind". And then seconds later a gust of wind came. I was amazed that he sensed it.

I'm not sure free will is relevant to an omnipotent being because an omnipotent being isn't travelling through a linear sense of time.

Edit: correction

[Imwashingmypirate]

Within a system their is an element of free will in that frame of reference if you will. But to an observer outside of that system, the free will isn't there because you can see the outside elements that come into play..

This is interesting. Some won’t like this but I plugged your statement into Pi A.I..

Here’s what I got:

The concept of free will can be thought of as relative to the frame of reference, or the level of information available to the observer.

Within a system, an individual may appear to have free will because they can make choices and act based on their own desires and beliefs. However, from an outside perspective, those actions may appear deterministic because the observer can see all of the factors that influenced the individual's behavior, including environmental, social, and biological factors.

This is similar to the concept of "Laplace's Demon," which posits that if a hypothetical being had perfect knowledge of all the particles in the universe and the laws that govern them, they would be able to predict the future with perfect accuracy. In such a scenario, free will would not exist.

Someone else here with more knowledge and expertise than me might be able to elaborate on Laplace’s Demon but to me it looks like the “hypothetical being” could be referred to as God. In and through all things knowing the end from the beginning. Even though we feel as though we have free will (and do as a matter of fact for all intents and purposes…accountability, guilt, joy in choosing right over wrong, etc….we do), God might be able to see it all from a perspective in which free will is redefined or calibrated differently.

Although I can’t say right this minute what that definition might be.

I know there have been some interesting discussions along the way as to whether or not God has free will.

Thanks for spurring me on to further thought, pirate.

Regards,
MG

Appreciated. It's nice to share thoughts and them be of some value. I don't mind people using A.I.. I like that A.I. understood though. That's cool. I don't always know if I understand myself. Lol.

[MG 2.0]

This is interesting. Some won’t like this but I plugged your statement into Pi A.I..

Here’s what I got:



Someone else here with more knowledge and expertise than me might be able to elaborate on Laplace’s Demon but to me it looks like the “hypothetical being” could be referred to as God. In and through all things knowing the end from the beginning. Even though we feel as though we have free will (and do as a matter of fact for all intents and purposes…accountability, guilt, joy in choosing right over wrong, etc….we do), God might be able to see it all from a perspective in which free will is redefined or calibrated differently.

Although I can’t say right this minute what that definition might be.

I know there have been some interesting discussions along the way as to whether or not God has free will.

Thanks for spurring me on to further thought, pirate.

Regards,
MG

It's worth noting that Laplace was before our understanding of quantum randomness - that the universe is not a completely deterministic set of small billiard balls bumping into each other. There is uncertainty and randomness baked in, such that even a perfected human like the Mormon God would not be able to see the future. One of many reasons Joseph Smith got it wrong.

Interesting. This may actually go along more with the LDS concept of God.

The LDS concept of God also acknowledges some limitations to His power and knowledge. He is bound by eternal laws and principles. While God knows all things that are possible to know, He may not know with absolute certainty all future events that depend on the free will choices of His children.

This belief is related to the LDS understanding of the "Plan of Salvation," which emphasizes the importance of individual agency and choice in determining our eternal destiny. Therefore, while God knows all things, He may not always know exactly how individuals will exercise their agency.

Pi A.I.

This would seem to allow for quantum randomness. And allow for our agency to be truly free.

This whole free will thing is a heavy topic.

Can you imagine a creator God that has free will/agency? He wouldn’t be able to make a wrong choice, right? What a load to carry. Or not?

Heavy stuff.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

It's worth noting that Laplace was before our understanding of quantum randomness - that the universe is not a completely deterministic set of small billiard balls bumping into each other. There is uncertainty and randomness baked in, such that even a perfected human like the Mormon God would not be able to see the future. One of many reasons Joseph Smith got it wrong.

I don't know about a Mormon God (human ascended). But I'm pretty sure it is taught that God is infinite, the alpha and omega, being able to see all time. I think with a little imagination that an infinite being outside of all dimensions (not parallel dimensions, space time and matter dimensions beyond our comprehension) would be able to know of all possible outcomes of people's lives and choices. That is that our beings experiencing time is not linear (from an outside perspective) to God but like a tree with lots of branches and as we make the choices other choices that would be derived from the initial choice no longer are available. Like the tree is the branches and we are walking to the twigs but we can't go back and move to a different branch, each new branch and twig coming off the branch we are on being a new choice. The rest of the tree goes away for us.

It is also said that God knows us. Some autistic people are so good at noticing patterns that it is like they can see things others don't. I was sitting near a severely autistic person. He can barely talk. He doesn't really communicate at all. And he said,"wind". And then seconds later a gust of wind came. I was amazed that he sensed it.

I'm not sure free will is relevant to an omnipotent being because an omnipotent being isn't travelling through a linear sense of time.

Edit: correction

You're correct, of course. Traditional Christianity has an actual creator God with those attributes. Then Joseph Smith came along and wanted to impress everyone with an offhand comment, "Oh yeah by the way guys God is just a man." Mormon God didn't create us, didn't create matter, didn't create time. He just exists inside of it and is bound by it like we are.

It sounds really nice at first, like it's actually more plausible than the typical conception of God. Until you start thinking of all the implications like the ones you've raised. God really needs to be outside of time and space in order to be, well, God.

I think subconsciously, Mormons believe in the type of God that you're describing. They don't allow themselves to go too far down the road thinking about how limited Mormon God is, how he has his own God, that he lives on a planet somewhere. Mormons just default to the typical understanding of God like every other Christian.

[MG 2.0]

I don't always know if I understand myself. Lol.

I think that for all of us that places limitations on limitless free will.

Morley had asked earlier what percentage of our lives is operative/controlled by free will. I felt like shrink wrapping it to a percentage is kind of hard to do. So many different factors. Self knowledge being one.

An important one.

Regards,
MG

[Imwashingmypirate]

It's worth noting that Laplace was before our understanding of quantum randomness - that the universe is not a completely deterministic set of small billiard balls bumping into each other. There is uncertainty and randomness baked in, such that even a perfected human like the Mormon God would not be able to see the future. One of many reasons Joseph Smith got it wrong.

Interesting. This may actually go along more with the LDS concept of God.

The LDS concept of God also acknowledges some limitations to His power and knowledge. He is bound by eternal laws and principles. While God knows all things that are possible to know, He may not know with absolute certainty all future events that depend on the free will choices of His children.

This belief is related to the LDS understanding of the "Plan of Salvation," which emphasizes the importance of individual agency and choice in determining our eternal destiny. Therefore, while God knows all things, He may not always know exactly how individuals will exercise their agency.

Pi A.I.

This would seem to allow for quantum randomness. And allow for our agency to be truly free.

This whole free will thing is a heavy topic.

Can you imagine a creator God that has free will/agency? He wouldn’t be able to make a wrong choice, right? What a load to carry. Or not?

Heavy stuff.

Regards,
MG

From what I just read briefly - was kind of confused at first - I think the idea is that if you look at a single moment, you can derive from that all of the past that led to that moment and all of the future it would lead to. And then an argument against is that in thermodynamics, you can't take a moment and derive how that moment came about. The state is irreversible in a lot of cases. I'm pretty sure though that space time is irreversible. Although, an infinite all seeing being (haha, love the rhyme) would be able to derive it all because they would already know it all. But could the manipulate time?

I don't believe humans will become gods. I don't believe that the Mormon God is anything like the God we are taught about in the old testament if the Mormon God was once a man. That would mean there are other Gods of equal calibre.

I guess we have to look at the choices that God made (from the teachings we have).

The first we know of is the creation. It's said that God knew the end from the beginning. So, it was already done before it was done because time is different. But then God also would have infinite processing power. Does A.I. have free will? Do computers have free will? I'm not sure. I don't know if the God of the Bible is the same as an omnipotent, infinite being. Would God have already done everything in all time before we even experienced it. When the beginning happened had it all happened and now we are travelling through it. Has the end already happened. Like if we died and life passed before our eyes. If it is true that we see our whole life (which I doubt) and it is all playing in that last moment,(ohh I don't want to forget, dreams) the observer, the person dying might be perceiving the full thing again but the outside perspective doesn't see that time pass.
Like dreams (I've got anxiety right now), REM states don't actually last long in the physical world. I am one of these people who has multiple dreams a night and sometimes I even think I'm awake. I can have dreams that last so long so much can happen in them. But I know logically I'm not actually in the dream state as long as the dream feels. I know that I have fallen asleep and had dreams and woken up to not much time passing at all. So (forgot my point)... Oh I can't remember. Don't know why I'm feeling anxious right now. Came from nowhere

[Imwashingmypirate]

I don't know about a Mormon God (human ascended). But I'm pretty sure it is taught that God is infinite, the alpha and omega, being able to see all time. I think with a little imagination that an infinite being outside of all dimensions (not parallel dimensions, space time and matter dimensions beyond our comprehension) would be able to know of all possible outcomes of people's lives and choices. That is that our beings experiencing time is not linear (from an outside perspective) to God but like a tree with lots of branches and as we make the choices other choices that would be derived from the initial choice no longer are available. Like the tree is the branches and we are walking to the twigs but we can't go back and move to a different branch, each new branch and twig coming off the branch we are on being a new choice. The rest of the tree goes away for us.

It is also said that God knows us. Some autistic people are so good at noticing patterns that it is like they can see things others don't. I was sitting near a severely autistic person. He can barely talk. He doesn't really communicate at all. And he said,"wind". And then seconds later a gust of wind came. I was amazed that he sensed it.

I'm not sure free will is relevant to an omnipotent being because an omnipotent being isn't travelling through a linear sense of time.

Edit: correction

You're correct, of course. Traditional Christianity has an actual creator God with those attributes. Then Joseph Smith came along and wanted to impress everyone with an offhand comment, "Oh yeah by the way guys God is just a man." Mormon God didn't create us, didn't create matter, didn't create time. He just exists inside of it and is bound by it like we are.

It sounds really nice at first, like it's actually more plausible than the typical conception of God. Until you start thinking of all the implications like the ones you've raised. God really needs to be outside of time and space in order to be, well, God.

I think subconsciously, Mormons believe in the type of God that you're describing. They don't allow themselves to go too far down the road thinking about how limited Mormon God is, how he has his own God, that he lives on a planet somewhere. Mormons just default to the typical understanding of God like every other Christian.

This is the feeling I get. But the thing is, even if this is the case and the Mormon God exists then there would still be the infinite God that created everything existing outside of out physical laws, boundless. So this discussion is still relevant. When I was active LDS, I didn't visualise the Mormon God. I actually just didn't believe when they said humans can become Gods. I took it to be not literal.

[Imwashingmypirate]

I don't always know if I understand myself. Lol.

I think that for all of us that places limitations on limitless free will.

Morley had asked earlier what percentage of our lives is operative/controlled by free will. I felt like shrink wrapping it to a percentage is kind of hard to do. So many different factors. Self knowledge being one.

An important one.

Regards,
MG

We don't even have the ability to grasp the idea of what free will means. That's why we discuss is. If it was comprehendible it would be as understood as knowing the bins go out on Friday (for me). So we are very limited of how we assign our levels of free will in the events of our lives.

I know someone who was once told they had a fragmented personality. They were told that they were unable to make decisions. It was quite a struggle to watch them at cross roads in their life unable to make choices. They've since resolved that and now seems fine. It makes the idea of free will even harder when a person can't even choose. Of course that was a problem in their own thinking and the mental block they had put up. You could say that it was an unconscious choice to not be able to choose but it was distressing to see.

Lol. I've got that thing going on where if you say something so many times it loses it's meaning. I've lost connection with what free will means because I've dissected it in my mind.

[Res Ipsa]

You don't even know what my opinion on the issue of free will is.

Chime in then! If I’ve got you pegged wrong, by all means straighten me out.

Regards,
MG

Waste of time. Common sense alone would tell you which or the two of us would feel threatened by existence of non-existence of free agency.

[Gadianton]

Can you imagine a creator God that has free will/agency?

What is free will/agency?