Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

[MG 2.0]

…nor do I blame you for not having learned much in your many decades of church membership.

I find you an interesting character, Gadianton.

Typically taking a position of ‘knowing’ from a position of superior knowledge and intellect. Looking down on the poor benighted souls who have been duped into believing in God and the truth claims of the LDS Church.

Your voice is one voice among many, and as you said, you speak under your own volition and I would suppose only for yourself. Nonetheless, I find that your assumed position of superiority and influence to be at a minimum reductionist and at most arrogant.

Methinks you assume too much and take yourself too seriously. And on a board like this one over a period of time it might be well to consider whether you might become ‘puffed up’ in your own understanding.

Would it not be correct to say that you are looked up to by a majority of posters on this board and that it would be quite out of place for anyone to look at you as none other but a person who speaks with authority and from a place of supreme wisdom?

Even supernal wisdom?

Granted, you do have a way with words as have rhetoricians throughout time.

I’m sure you’re a good guy, Gadianton. But I do take it personally when you make accusations of having not “learned much” in the decades I have been on the planet, and by inference indicate that this is because of my membership and activity in the church.

That’s hubris, to come up with that kind of stuff. And it’s not the first time.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

…this is mind-blowing. The day has come that members don't even need to pretend they are learning doctrine, they just need to know it's true and refer to the chatbot if anyone has an issue with that?

As with A.I. systems that are used to access information on many other topics and for many other purposes, there are individuals that have taken the time and used their professional expertise to provide an A.I. portal in which queries can be entered and compilation of information is quickly made available for use.

The reality is that most members do study the gospel on their own with their own study materials. I, for one, wasn’t even aware of the LDS Chatbot until drumdude brought it to our attention.

It’s these kinds of statements that you make that do not build your character. Character assassination does the opposite. Again, you’re making members look like a bunch of dupes and lazy imbeciles.

They just need to know it is true…

C’mon. Reductionist thinking again. Arrogance? Not sure. But it appears that way to me at times.

Others may actually look up to you for guidance and direction. Or to model their behavior after. And this is what they get?

I could name a few on this board that are seemingly doing so.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

More information is {always} better.

One wonders why then the Church kept so much historical information (Joseph’s polygamy, the seer stone etc) from Church members for so long (and only started putting some information out once third parties had let the various cats out of their various bags). One also wonders why the Church sought to hide financial information and avoid reporting it. Surely the Brethren know that members having more information is always better?

[MG 2.0]

It looks like I owe MG 2.0 an apology. I thought I saw a recent comment from Morley also that supports this, but MG is using a church A.I chatbot to get these answers? I didn't realize that. I accused him of leaning on the arm of flesh for answers. Yes, if he were using one of the many browser AIs out there he'd be bowing to the wisdom of men. But given it's church authorized, then that's not the case.

I bow to the wisdom and learning of men all the time. I was an educator. Difficult to teach anything else but that. I’m always looking for something new to learn. I think you and I might be viewing “arm of the flesh” from two different perspectives even though we’re in the same room.

I’m also thinking that the LDS Chatbot that drumdude and I accessed doesn’t have any official church sanction.

I could be wrong.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

More information is {always} better.

One wonders why then the Church kept so much historical information (Joseph’s polygamy, the seer stone etc) from Church members for so long (and only started putting some information out once third parties had let the various cats out of their various bags). One also wonders why the Church sought to hide financial information and avoid reporting it. Surely the Brethren know that members having more information is always better?

Fun aside.

I asked LDS Chatbot whether more information is always better.

Got this response:

That's a thoughtful question! In Latter-day Saint thought, knowledge and understanding are highly valued, as we're encouraged to "seek learning, even by study and also by faith" (Doctrine and Covenants 88:118). However, there's also recognition that not all information is of equal value or appropriate at all times. For instance, the scriptures teach about speaking things that are "uplifting and of good report" and learning "wisdom in thy youth; yea, learn in thy youth to keep the commandments of God" (Alma 37:35).

It's important to seek knowledge that builds our faith, strengthens our families, and helps us serve others. Sometimes, more information on a given topic can be beneficial, especially if it's truthful, edifying, and encourages us to grow in positive ways. Yet, there's also wisdom in focusing on information that is most relevant and beneficial to our personal lives and spiritual growth, and being cautious about information that may lead us away from faith or truth.

Would you like to discuss how to discern or seek information that enriches our spiritual lives?

I’m not surprised at this answer. But it is interesting that the answer also dovetails what Morley brought up in regards to the specific query he made.

It does depend on how the question is asked. He and I went round and round on that a bit.

When I asked LDS Chatbot if more information is usually better to have than less information I got this:

In a general sense, having more information can be beneficial because it helps us make informed decisions and understand the world more fully. The scriptures and Latter-day Saint teachings encourage gaining knowledge and wisdom, as seen in Proverbs 4:7, "Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding."

However, quantity does not always equal quality. It’s essential to seek information that is true, uplifting, and leads to spiritual growth. Sometimes, too much information, especially if it is not accurate or is taken out of context, can lead to confusion or doubt. Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf once taught about the importance of focusing on the basics of our faith, suggesting that focusing on core doctrines and principles can guide us through the complexities of life.

In addition, Elder Dallin H. Oaks has spoken about how we need to prioritize what we learn, indicating that not all truth is of equal value at the time we encounter it. Our quest for knowledge should be balanced with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, helping us to discern what is most important for our personal spiritual growth and what might lead us away from the path of discipleship.

So, while more information can be beneficial, it is the quality, source, and relevancy, along with our intentions in seeking it, that matter most. Would you like to discuss strategies for finding and using information that supports spiritual growth?

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

The church seems to strongly disagree that more information is better with regards to their financial information...

[MG 2.0]

The church seems to strongly disagree that more information is better with regards to their financial information...

It is interesting to note that the LDS church is not unique in not being fully transparent with its finances. Other Christian churches also are reticent to disclose all of their financial dealings. The Catholic Church being one of the largest and well known.

LDS Chatbot has this to say:

The topic of the Church's financial transparency is one that interests many. It's grounded in a balance between confidentiality for wise stewardship and being accountable to its members.

First off, it's key to understand that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints operates on principles of financial prudence and reserve. Gordon B. Hinckley, a past President of the Church, explained the approach to finances during the October 1995 General Conference, saying, "Each year we put into the reserves of the Church a portion of our annual budget. We are only doing what we have suggested every family do. Should there come a time of economic distress, we would hope to have the means to weather the storm." This statement underscores a commitment to wisely managing resources, ensuring the Church can fulfill its mission indefinitely, including times of economic difficulty.

Regarding transparency, the Church does disclose its financial dealings in countries where such disclosures are required by law, providing insight into its financial practices and allocations in those regions. For instance, in the United Kingdom and Canada, detailed financial reports are filed annually with the respective government agencies.

The Church also shares how it utilizes its resources in broader terms, emphasizing its focus on funding missionary work, constructing temples and meetinghouses, providing educational opportunities (such as through BYU and other Church educational programs), and supporting humanitarian efforts worldwide.

One reason for not disclosing detailed financial information more broadly might be the desire to avoid detracting from the spiritual purposes of the Church's missions through excessive focus on financial matters. Additionally, maintaining a level of privacy could help ensure the funds are managed prudently, without undue external pressures or criticisms based on misunderstandings of the Church's long-term strategies and goals.

If you have concerns or questions about how your contributions are used, it might be comforting to remember the Church's teachings on tithing and offerings, emphasizing faith, sacrifice, and the blessings that come from following this commandment. It's also encouraged to pray and seek spiritual confirmation about these contributions.

Sounds reasonable to me.

But it won’t to others who are somewhat more skeptical and lack trust in the leadership of the church.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

Typically taking a position of ‘knowing’ from a position of superior knowledge and intellect.

That might be how you think I see myself, but I could probably change that perception by changing my av. I've had this one for years, but I've had many others prior to it. I could change it to a puppy dog and that might change your beliefs about how I see myself. I love dogs and so it wouldn't be out of character at all.

Looking down on the poor benighted souls who have been duped into believing in God and the truth claims of the LDS Church.

I don't look down on people merely for believing in God or believing in Mormonism. I do look down on terrible arguments, or maybe not even that, but doubling down on terrible arguments and never improving. This does get tricky, because I think believers, at least traditional believers, are at a severe disadvantage. So yeah, there's a lot of grading on a curve that goes into my assessment. It's a tough one.

Your voice is one voice among many, and as you said, you speak under your own volition and I would suppose only for yourself. Nonetheless, I find that your assumed position of superiority and influence to be at a minimum reductionist and at most arrogant.

Why would it be reductionist? That's one of those DCP buzzwords. What does that even mean, MG?

Methinks you assume too much and take yourself too seriously. And on a board like this one over a period of time it might be well to consider whether you might become ‘puffed up’ in your own understanding.

I don't think that I know that much MG, there are lots of people who know more than I do. There are lots of Mormons who know more than I do.

Would it not be correct to say that you are looked up to by a majority of posters on this board and that it would be quite out of place for anyone to look at you as none other but a person who speaks with authority and from a place of supreme wisdom?

I just don't think that's true. I think a lot of people here think I'm out to lunch. I speculate way more than I should and many others on this board provide better factual information that I do. I'm also relatively uneducated when compared to many of the other board members. I think the av is working overtime in your head, MG, maybe I'll consider changing it to see if that makes a difference.

Even supernal wisdom?

Granted, you do have a way with words as have rhetoricians throughout time.

I'm really not that good with words either, not compared to others on this board or even some of the apologists. Look at DCP and Kiwi57, those guys are real word smiths. English was a tough subject for me in school, but I have tried to do better.

I’m sure you’re a good guy, Gadianton. But I do take it personally when you make accusations of having not “learned much” in the decades I have been on the planet, and by inference indicate that this is because of my membership and activity in the church.

Well, can you or can't you give a definition of free will without the help of a Mormon A.I.? Look, I think church is designed to keep people from learning things. I'm really serious when I say that I don't fault you for not being able to, but at the same time, I'm going to point it out. I think few Mormons would be able to offer any insight whatsoever into what constitutes free will, the ones who can most likely took classes in school to help them out. But then again, I think most of the discussion about "free will" is a sham anyway, a lot of smart philosophers have talked about it, but I don't think they've gotten anywhere.

You have a tendency to switch lanes to meta discussions, which is annoying for people. For instance, on church history threads, you switch to relativism such that nobody can be right about church history. So the mods moved that discussion to this thread where we can talk about relativism. Somehow the discussion changed to free will, and recently you began down the path that because people are so hurt, you can't take their arguments seriously. And so in the church history threads, you avoid dealing with facts about church history by concluding it's all a matter of perspective, and now on this thread, it looks like you're avoiding dealing with arguments because everyone is just really hurt and so the arguments aren't authentic.

I'm wrong all the time MG. You could fact check me sometimes and maybe score a point or two. For instance, recently I said all the new atheists believe in free will as soft determinists. After I posted it, I'd totally forgotten about Sam Harris who is a hard determinist. At least I think, I've never actually read his books but I've seen quotes. That's one of many opportunities you could have made me look like a fool with a little effort.

[MG 2.0]

Well, can you or can't you give a definition of free will without the help of a Mormon A.I.?

I don’t think that it’s rocket science. Free will is the ability to choose. Free will is found along a spectrum from little or no choice to a wide range of choices. That spectrum is aligned with a multiplicity of factors that either inhibit or support making choices and thinking thoughts.

My free will, at least from where sit, has a wider range of choices and thought opportunities and patterns than someone in sub Saharan Africa. But that doesn’t make me better or worse on an objective level. Just different.

Free will, again, has its limitations for each and every human. At least I would think so. But to say that there is a range of limitations doesn’t negate the fact that as a matter of the larger whole of humanity, free will exists, and is the engine that gives purpose and meaning to existence.

Now, you can parse and twist what I’ve said into something that you might call ‘meaningless’ but that doesn’t make it less so to me. And that’s what I’ve been saying (sticking to it!) during this thread. We are all in the same room but we have come to the party having had different experiences and we see the world not only through our eyes but through our experiences. Free will plays its part in those experiences.

That’s the core of what I believe in regards to free will. Where I might differ from other LDS folks (although I think there may be a wide swath of members of the church that have their own views) is that I think free will would exist with or without God. If there is freedom and liberty in the wider system. That’s where my beliefs intersect with Mormonism. Satan’s plan would have morphed into a world where that natural and inherent ability to choose would have been severely limited if not ultimately extinguished.

Of course we don’t know for sure what that would have looked like. We might see some semblance of it in nations and city states throughout history where freedom and liberty have been restricted. Sometimes severely and with horrible results.

It seems that even in a world that (from the point of view of Mormonism) was designed for free will and agency to have a fertile field to exist there have been many and varied ‘pests’ and ‘lack of nutrients’ to feed and nurture that field.

Anyway, that’s about it for now. Participation will be a bit less for a week or so. Our son and his wife and a couple of grandkids are flying in tonight for a week long visit. Other family will be in and out.

I will look at other posts, if any, but I will be keeping any responses, if any, short and sweet. Or sour, haha.

No A.I. on this post. Promise.

By the way, thanks for your recent response. I think it helped me understand you a bit better.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

Anyway, that’s about it for now. Participation will be a bit less for a week or so. Our son and his wife and a couple of grandkids are flying in tonight for a week long visit. Other family will be in and out.

That sounds lovely, have a great week MG.